Come, O Bride!

Great writing.

Wonderful choice of Lecha Dodi as the setting, I think.

Velvel,

O chazak, chazak. Soon Y. will be singing Eishit Chayil an soon after he’ll be elevated to the highest spheres of Friday Night Glory. Why worry about finances?

Narishkeiten! It’s but a small price to pay

More seriously, this brings up the question of if Y would have been able to have less children should he understand that having so many children is not a religious necessity. Even then he probably is limited in his influence on situation unless his partner feels similarly (which is often not the case).

Lecha Dodi is only the prelude that sets the stage for what is the Friday night theme, which in Kabbalistic terms is to glorify, accommodate and satisfy the Shekhinah, the queen, the female component of God. And indeed, Friday night, for the pious, has its special culmination. Oops, there goes another one. A boy or a girl?

Talk about סוֹף מַעֲשֶׂה בְּמַחֲשָׁבָה תְּחִלָּה.

Yonadab: Thanks.

Shpitz!! Brilliant as always! Indeed after Lecha Dodoi and Eishel Chayil,(and some schnapps)on to Neshomes making they go, as the Zohar states Friday night is the only time to bring down holy souls. It’s all about souls why think of materialism.

Seriously your point I think is very valid, is it only the men who are in charge of the Chasidic family planning, or are women playing an equal if not greater role. I personally know of some (!) instances where even when presented with a hetter to go on birth control the wives refuse. I speculate in our society a women not having more children makes then feel useless and not fulfilling their duty. Most of the time there’s no carrier or job to fill the women’s world. I would like to hear what others think on the subject.

Interestingly Halacha is quite flexible on the matter. One may use most forms of birth cotrol and Halacha does not demand having as much children possible. I just saw one of the noted poskim of old Europe stating that one should only have children if he can feed them. Time to end to irresponsible behavior.

שכינה מתוך גרונו: Yes it’s all deeply connected. Kabalah is facsinating on unifieing what goes on “behind the scenes” of mondane Jewish practices.

Shpitz: it’s true, both play a role. But would Y. be limited if his wife didn’t feel similarly? Having children is both a joint and an individual responsibility. And if Y feels he can’t provide and the wife doesn’t want to use contraceptive, then Y’s just gotta say, “Sorry, Maam, but you ain’t gettin any.” That’s what responsibility is about.

(Here I am touting “responsibility” as if it’s a supreme value, but that’s a whole nother discussion.)

Velvel: I second what you’re saying. I know of specific instances where it was the woman who felt that if she weren’t pushing a Maclaren (or preparing to buy one) she felt her femininity in question.

Anecdotally, I also say it’s the women craving it, whether for peer pressure or whatever other reason. But HR’s right, responsible men can, in many cases, be more persuasive.

Good article, but the point of view is subjective on the part of the author while projecting onto his subject.

Y. may indeed be feeling overwhelmed, but very possibly he only sees the eleven beautiful children and thinks, “which one of them should I ch”v not had?” (a fallacy that seems to be the most beloved catchphrase of overly-reproductive parents everywhere)

I also kind of think that children sneak up on you…having eleven babies puts a lot of pressure on mothers. Having seven teenagers shifts most of that pressure, and adds on a million pounds of financial responsibility, onto the fathers. Most just don’t see it coming, or perhaps they’d have considered family planning earlier.

HR: “Sorry, Maam, but you ain’t gettin any.” That’s what responsibility is about.

HR, Sometimes in this community it may be a dangerous road to go dowm and may end up more irresponsibly then responsibly.(‘he/she doesn’t want to have more children’is of the more grave lables) Of course each situation is different. The important element here I believe is ‘abisl siechal’.

Skeleton: Being a father myself I surly agree, no father and mother can see themselves without each and every of their children and would go in fire for each of them, but does this necessarily imply the more the better?

And I agree the young ‘tzutitzks’ getting married and have no clue. They are excited to make a kiddush and zocher and to send text message invitations to their friends, and as they get older they realize it ain’t a picnic and wish they would’ve been a bit more cautious.

Thanks for commenting

“Sorry, Maam, but you ain’t gettin any.” That’s what responsibility is about.

And who exactly would you be punishing?

Well, HT, one can argue that a guy’s always got options. Not that I’m arguing it, mind you. But one might.

But regardless, this isn’t about punishment. In the secular world it is de rigueur to take protective measures when having sex, both regarding contraceptives and STDs. It’s the responsibility of both partners to be on the same page, and if they’re not, they have no business being in business, if you catch my drift. The Chasidic world needs to learn that having children is a responsibility both partners need to be on board and properly prepared for.

Many in the Chasidic community do not see financial stress as a reason to limit the number of kids. While I do not agree with that reasoning, they are entirely convinced that God will provide and that their tafkid in this world is to have children. Women, specifically, feel this way. If God will somehow make them come into enough money to support all their children – which is what they seriously believe – then, according to them, they are not being irresponsible by reproducing above their means.

Many of us know how well that works out.

Absolutely. I wasn’t disagreeing or stating that “the more the merrier” applies to childbearing. Quite the opposite. I pointed out the fallacy of the charming anecdote parents of many kids love to retell.

You’re welcome