Bribing God

and then….?

Yonahb, Yonahb, take off thine shoes as God speaketh to you here! I shall need from thee sheep and cattle and blood and you shall praise my name in honor and glory at every moment that thee lowly human doth breathe! Your Mighty Lord shall be loved, feared and praised, for it is I, God, Creator of the Universe, smiter of the Cananites, force of the flood, source of the plague, punisher of all, that cannot be satisfied lest Yonahb drools at my name as Yippy does at Tzippy’s!

I hear God’s word is awaiting comment moderation and God is NOT happy about it.

Judging from the fact that He didn’t laugh in your face your in pretty good shape. The fact that he shook his head sadly thus presumably exhibiting a hint of compassion towards you is a huge victory within itself.

You grossly underestimated his appetite though. You can’t bribe him by promising your gonna be a good boy. He is indifferent to that. We all know what He really loves. He loves the sound of little kids praying and screeching to his name, may it be glorified forever and ever! If you really wanna be on his good side (though I question the logic of that, he is not that loyal) offer him up a juvenile screech; he usually falls for that.

Oops, God made a shidduch between Yonadab and Yonah.

What divine providence!

Yonah you did again! Profound. Deep in its simplicity.

Never mind,God. Things worked out in the end. Besides, I wouldn’t even know where to get a hold of sheep and cattle.
Thank, anyway.

R&C – I was going for compassion. I’m glad you saw that.

Yonah.

Gods response in your article is reminiscent of the old “maskilishe” joke about the return of the Toireh. I’m sure your familiar with that, but just to refresh you. The joke goes something like this.

The Jews decided that they had enough with the toireh and all the mitzves and haluches. They convened and decided thet they are returning the Toireh to God at the precise location it was given. They gathered all the seforim that were written over the centuries and brought it all to Mount Sinai. They waited for God to appear and take back his Toireh. Finally God descends upon the hill, reaches out, pulls out from the pile of seforim a little dogeared set of “chamisha chimshey toiyreh” and proclaims-”this is what I gave you, so I’m taking it back, all of the rest is not from me!!”

I wonder if Gods response, in your article, was meant in a similar fashion? Enlighten me please.

A:
“Ki Im Asot Mishpat VeAhavat Hesed VeHatznea’ Lekhet Im Elohkha”

“only to do justice the love selfless kindness and to walk humbly with your God”

R&C-I’ve never heard of that joke, but that’s it. You totally get me.
I’ve said before, there is a fine line between religion and insanity.
In today’s chasidish world, everything is taught as Toras Moshe. Everything is forbidden unless proven otherwise. Actually, scratch that. Everything is forbidden. Even asking for sources.

Ah, I had a different pshat here.
God doesn’t want you to better yourself, and wants you to fail, so that you pray, grovel, and cry out to him often as a result of failure.

A behavioral trait of his, well documented in psychedelic Hasidic literature.

ב  דַּבֵּר אֶל-בְּנֵי יִשְׂרָאֵל, וְאָמַרְתָּ אֲלֵהֶם, אָדָם כִּי-יַקְרִיב מִכֶּם קָרְבָּן, לַיהוָה–מִן-הַבְּהֵמָה, מִן-הַבָּקָר וּמִן-הַצֹּאן, תַּקְרִיבוּ, אֶת-קָרְבַּנְכֶם. 2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them: When any man of you bringeth an offering unto the LORD, ye shall bring your offering of the cattle, even of the herd or of the flock. ג  אִם-עֹלָה קָרְבָּנוֹ מִן-הַבָּקָר, זָכָר תָּמִים יַקְרִיבֶנּוּ; אֶל-פֶּתַח אֹהֶל מוֹעֵד, יַקְרִיב אֹתוֹ, לִרְצֹנוֹ, לִפְנֵי יְהוָה. 3 If his offering be a burnt-offering of the herd, he shall offer it a male without blemish; he shall bring it to the door of the tent of meeting, that he may be accepted before the LORD.

מה ה’ אלהיך שאל מעמך

החפץ ה’ באלפי אילים ברבבות נחלי שמן?

מי ביקש זאת מידכם

and bemused God asked “did you people even read the damn Chumash?”

Brilliant, Shpitzle!

This conversation reminds me of the story with the robots in Sholom Auslander’s “Beware of God.” If you haven’t read this book, you should. It’s very sharp and very insightful.

Shpitzle, Shpitzle, nice,nice- very good!!

The big difference between Rashi and Laura is that Rashi’s grammar hang up is actually needed to understand the p’shat in the verse. In Hebrew, unlike English (especially Biblical Hebrew) one extra letter can change the context and meaning of a whole verse, as I’m sure you know. Rashi also has a hang up with translating words into “bla”z” which of course is medieval French. But it’s not unwarranted, people back than weren’t so familiar with Hebrew as we are now. Where is Laura…….ok, won’t go there one thread is enough to sustain this sublime battle.

Your response to Pen though made my day. I have thought about this many times before. If you read through the Bible, God sometimes comes across as a childish and immature adolescent. He gets offended easily, is vengeful, hates all other lesser gods, whom he sees as his competition, is self destructive, and wants instant gratification, and, my God, his never ending need for reassurance, love, and affection…..he never ceases demanding total obedience and loyalty- true teenager characteristics across the board. Sometimes you have to wonder, where is the lofty, altruistic, noble, and aristocratic God that is supposedly depicted in the Bible?

Missyavni, 2 thumbs up! But we all know what he really likes. He likes kigel, and potato of course!!

Yonah.

I disagree there is no fine line between religion and insanity. Religion is insanity! Precisely the opposite is true; what kills religion is the fine line that has been imposed on religion. By the fine line I am referring to the fact that religion has been corrupted with the attempt to make it fit into the boundaries of logic and sense. Religion is all about ecstasy, revelation, light, beholding an idea that can’t possibly be explained in scientific or logical terms. The Rambam, R”sag and the other early Rishonim have done a great disservice to religion by attempting to imitate the Muslim theologians in ascribing the principles of Greek philosophy to religion. It doesn’t work and it never will. Philosophy and Religion are contradictory in nature and by definition. Since we, in our present state, are a direct product of the advances and inroads philosophy has made on our lives it is almost impossible to be completely consumed by insanity; by religion. it is almost impossible for a modern day person who is schooled from the day he is born in the ways of logic, to behold God. Unless of course he is not very logical, or if he is logical, he turns a blind eye and fools himself.

Your second point is well taken. I think the religioso are making a fatal mistake by combining minhag, halucheh, customs, and tradition under the same wide and encompassing mantle. Everything is forbidden, and everything has the same vitality. When I figured out that tying my right show before my left show doesn’t constitute me being a transgressor of the highest degree and is not the sole reason for the exile of his eminence (shechineh), I started questioning whether flicking on the switch on Shabbes is so bad too? After all they were both forbidden in the same breath and ascribed the same urgency. I think, if the religiosos would compartmentalize and dissect the levels and the layers of the law, they would be more successful in deceiving the masses, Their current strategy is not sound and is fraught with defects. The same thing is true about the way tzadikim are represented and revered.

R&C- You say that God sometimes comes across as a childish and immature adolescent.
Is that really how He portrays Himself? Or is this how the revised and revamped Judaism
has portrayed Him?
I mean, it’s been thousands of years since Sinai. So much has been lost in translation.

R&C- we must have crossed posts.
I said, there is a very fine line between religion and insanity. Your second point proves that.

Oh, and *shoe (as opposed to show). I know it’s a typo but for the love of God, change it before the wrath of Laura descends upon you.

Yonah: God really wants you to stop listening to Lipa’s music. He would prefer that you wear a wool tallis koton even on weekdays.
He also needs you to stop eating foods that have only a OU for a hechsher.

Yonah

I didn’t say that’s his character. I didn’t,” god forbid”, reduce God to a set personality type. That’s how he comes across at times. At times he exhibits different traits that show different sides of his personality. Maybe the truest diagnosis of God would be that he is suffering from a severe multi personality disorder? Then again, since by nature he can and has every conceivable personality trait, maybe his peculiar disorder should be called omnipersonality disorder? Maybe it shouldn’t be considered a disorder altogether, since it doesn’t apparently impede on his functioning? A disorder is only considered such when it’s not the norm, who is the normal God that we can compare Him to, to know that he is abnormal?

Of course you’re right that my only reference to God is from the way I was taught about him. Maybe throughout the years his true essence has been lost in translation. Since I can’t speak about the God that I don’t know, my observation goes on the God I have learnt to know. I have no reason to believe that I can’t strip away every preconceived notion I had about him and rediscover him in his book. I have done that, and that’s how he appears to me at times.

“R&C- we must have crossed posts.
I said, there is a very fine line between religion and insanity. Your second point proves that.”

I don’t think were arguing about anything, we are just implying different themes for the same word. Your insanity is concerned with the procedural, ritualistic, protocols, and practices that is stereotypical of every religion. My insanity refers to the concept of religion as a whole. Sort of like,” to be religious is to be crazed with and infatuated with God”; It’s similar to being in love. Being in love also has a level of insanity to it. Love can’t be explained logically, it’s just an overpowering emotion that beholds and grips a person.

(Please let’s not turn this into another thread were we have to haggle and argue about love, I meant it only as a comparison. Let’s stick to discussing God and religion.)

Rupture,

“Rashi’s grammar hang up is actually needed to understand the p’shat in the verse.”

I’m not questioning the significance of Rashi’s voluminous work, neither the work of any of the commentators and super commentators and super-super-super commentators…עד מאה ועשרים ועוד
(well, hmm, am I not questioning?) but am examining the actual story, when looked at as a whole. The chumash when read as the form of a book of ancient legend/myth makes for a very — well, strange book. One must wonder what Rashi would have thought of it had he found it on his bookshelf first at age 20, and if he’d bother to illuminate (and flatter a little) the text if he’d read it bare bone w/o applied cultural significance.

Our men have a lot of exposure to the text as a sacred writings, and probably can’t see it as it is, just as we can’t see a lulav as just a branch. For the Bais Feigeh veiblech, the experiment of reading “simple bible” is very illuminating. And depressing. And boring. Very boring.

Religion is all about ecstasy, revelation, light, beholding an idea that can’t possibly be explained in scientific or logical terms.”

I think you’re referring to spirituality, not religion. Religion is about ritual and community. Spirituality is about a personal feeling (of greater appreciation and meaning). Spirituality and Religion don’t have to contradict, but we can consider them bipartisan on miraculous days, and irreconcilable most others.

R&C: “Religion is all about ecstasy, revelation, light, beholding an idea that can’t possibly be explained in scientific or logical terms.Religion is all about ecstasy, revelation, light, beholding an idea that can’t possibly be explained in scientific or logical terms.”

I think you’re referring to spirituality, not religion. Religion is about ritual and community. Spirituality is about a personal feeling (of greater appreciation and meaning). Spirituality and Religion don’t have to contradict, but we can consider them bipartisan on miraculous days, and irreconcilable most others.

Shpitzle S.

Yes, the Bible is a strange book by modern standards but not by ancient standards. When comparing the behavior of the Bible God to the Greek gods, I’m actually proud to be Jewish. The Greek Gods are just busy all the time with feasts, orgies, and vengeance. They can’t seem to stop raping and warring with each other. The Bible God on the other hand has benevolent moments. For instance when he proclaims, “He doth execute the judgment of the fatherless and widow, and loveth the stranger, in giving him food and raiment.” (Detronomy: 10, 18) Rashi’s commentary on the bible is a reflection of years of traditional textual interpretation. The bible just like every other sacred text has a long standing tradition of interpretation. It’s impossible to read the bible without any semblance of an oral tradition. Even the Karaties, who attempted a so called return to the simple text, had to develop their own pattern of exegesis which amazingly wasn’t very dissimilar to the rabbinical methodology. I know for certain that they used “hekesh”. They might have also used “kal vechoimer”, though I’m not sure about that. They definitely employed some of the other 13 measures that the rabbinates use too. (If this stuff intrigues you, you can read Leon Nemoy’s book on the subject)

I was referring to religion. . Religion is a broad term; it has many subcategories. Some of them are: tradition, community, ritual, spirituality, and in certain special cases, even nationality. Spirituality independent of religion is a post modern phenomenon. The concept of spirit without God is hard for me to understand; it doesn’t make sense to me. I think spirituality is just a fancy word to explain a set of complex human emotions and feelings. I have yet to hear a comprehensive definition and explanation of the term.

Are you trying to say that a lulav is just a branch? Unthinkable!!

I’m not familiar with the “Bais Feigeh veiblech” breed, so I’m not sure what you’re implying. Care to elaborate?

Rupture,

Nothing Foigeldig about Bais Faiga, believe me. Nuns chirping, is all. You can suck your drool in.

-
Greek gods were quite human in nature. If anything they represented the shortcomings and faults of humans. The drama of Greek mythology itself doesn’t put the god or goddess above sin. It’s difficult to compare because the method of the myth is quite different. Greek Gods aren’t omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, omniperfect and don’t have to be. I’m sure it’s hard to wrap your head around an ‘anthropomorphic’ God like that. Not quite the match to the monotheistic above-imagination god that loves kugel (does not! He said meat!). Greek gods are about imagination, He is beyond.

What’s important is the realization that legends are not to be taken literally, and that’s missing in the approach to the HB. Epic poems are still studied and enjoyed and Greek or Roman myth (think Cupid) are as part of our culture as Jewish myth is. The difference is in if it’s seen as human or divine.

Spirituality without religion isn’t PoMo. It’s Eastern. It’s oriental, and is coming to us with globalization. Again, we think about religion in the limited lines of Judo-Christianity.

You consider nuns chirping nothing foiygeldig? Precisely that visualization got my drool flowing!

It’s extremely heretical of you to refer to the Greek Gods in the past tense. Are you implying that they’re all dead? True that the Greek Gods are fundamentally different than the monotheistic God, but they are all part of the God clan, and I don’t think a comparison/contrast is unwarranted.

You’re extreely undermining and underestimating the potency of the Greek Gods; they are very powerful and strong. It’s only due to their unfortunate polytheistic environment that they lack the “omni” quality attributed to YAWHA, but that doesn’t render them tender or weak. Greek Gods represent the shortcomings in human nature, only in a Judaeo-Christian sense. We view these personality traits as shortcomings because we’re used to looking at the world with Judaeo-Christian spectacles. In Greek mythology there is nothing wrong with jealousy, vengeance, greed, self centeredness, etc. The monotheistic god is the one that introduced all the sublime ideals that we hold in high esteem to this world. He decided to trash the traits that the Greek gods posses, and praises humility, altruism, justice, etc. So, when you say that the Greek Gods exhibit distinctly human shortcomings you are superimposing Judaeo-Christian values on Greek mythology. You can’t pass judgment on one world construct with the rules and values of a distinctly different world construct.

Sorry, let me rephrase. Spirituality without “God” in the Western Hemisphere is a post modern phenomenon. I won’t for a moment pretend to have any knowledge about eastern religion and mysticism, with that said, it’s still hard for me to believe that a system of spirituality or mysticism has evolved without the presence of some form of a deity. I see that spirituality is practiced in some circles despite the absence of god; I understand that God has been stripped off of these systems of belief, not that he was never present. I still don’t understand how it works; what are spirits if you don’t fundamentally believe in some supernatural being?

And, BTW, potato kugel is the prime matter that precedes all matter, and therefore is the main sustenance of God. All other matter is a corruption and distortion of kugel. Kugel went through the horrific process of decay and downfall, in prehistoric times, as the direct result of the breaking of the vessels and the dispersion of the sparks!!

Rupture Infidel! Will you let me eat, here? You’re ruining my appetite!

I said ‘And on the sixth day He created the most supreme being of all, and then I overnighted it, so I was off of work on the seventh.’

Heretic.

‘and then I overnighted it’

Haha! Genius!

Well articulated description of the essence of the Greek hero, but the Greek heroic personality still ‘errs’ and hence, doesn’t serve as a direct role model but rather as a lesson. Perhaps polytheism is bad for the god but better for the people. It may be a reflection of the most important contribution of the Greek: poly-rulership – namely, democracy. It’s a shame the religious leadership remained a dictatorship. And it’s a shame you can’t admit that in the context we know the Jewish God: as a role model of perfection and justice (and literal existence) he is as bad a God as it gets. He’s not only corrupt, but also always right. Like you. Like me.

I have no gripes with the Jewish mythology. I’m actually quite fond of it because of its personal significance to me. But as a moral last word, unchecked, well, that’s something else.

Yonah, youre complimenting God like youre afraid he is gonna send you back to Nineveh. Geez, stop kissing up to him.

R&C- What can I say?

R&C-What can I say?

R&C- What can I say? I guess I still subscribe to the ‘Sholom Auslander Theory’. God has the power to smite me and anything I say or think, can and will be used against me.

I liked the Nineveh reference.

Rupture, why the masculine pronoun, huh (“kissing up to him”)? Huh? You’re just jealous because God’s more talented than you!

Yonah. Good boy.

Yonah,
מי ימלל גבורות ה ישמיע כל תהולתו

You can never appease him with enough praise, so just shut up.

That’s why I tried bribery.

God- How do you wanna be refered to? In the she form? We (earthlings) are exhausted from the years of penetration by your immense reproductive organ. Maybe if you would stop humping humanity we would start thinking of you in the feminine form. As for now youre a guy in every sense. You f*** and destroy everything in sight.

Yonah, how did that go? Not so good I assume. The best way to deal with him is by submitting to him, showing him that youre weak, and than avoid him at all cost. Just ignore him. Thats my advice for you. Good Shabbos, Unpious brothers and sisters!!!

Shpitz.

“but the Greek heroic personality still ‘errs’ and hence, doesn’t serve as a direct role model but rather as a lesson”

Thanks. Your perception of the never erring God is a Judaeo Christian one. The Greek Gods err and they’re not less godly because of that. Exactly the opposite is true. I think it’s a far more positive message to humanity that you can err and still remain godly. I think the Greek Gods serve as better role models for precisely that reason. As you state at the end of your rebuttal you don’t appreciate that God is always right. The Greek gods adhere to a system of checks and balances. Sometimes one god beats the other god; sometimes one is right and the other is wrong, but at the end of the day they all remain Gods.

You’re raising a fine point with the suggestion that democracy might be a direct result of the Greek perception of rulership. Because of their polytheistic theme they perceived hegemony to be the lot of many, not the responsibility of a sole being. The only conundrum with this hypothesis is that, up until the introduction of monotheism by the Jews to the world, all theisms were poly. How is it than that democracy didn’t arise in different cultures? We can’t attribute the development of democracy solely to this theme, but nevertheless it’s noteworthy. Kudos, good thinking!!

(Zoroastrians were also monotheists, but they developed the theme around the same time the Jews did. Which thesis imbibed form which thesis?, might be an interesting problem to discuss at a different occasion).

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