Vil’amsburg Diaries: Evening Noises

Brilliant, Hershel.

I remeber well the penalty for not “tateling miten finger”, tatelen was a bitch.

You have some real oifge’klerte in your shtibel. People think that a murder should be executed? unheard off!! In my shtibel the extent of being oifgeklet is the belief that melamdim have no right to dish out murderous thrashings anymore. “Siz a nyer velt!! Amul hut men gekent haken, hynt shoin nisht. Todays children cant take the klep we used to take”.

Sheindy or breindy??

Malkele, I believe Sheindy’s the daughter and Breindy the wife. Or is it the other way around?

Malkele

Does it really matter? Aren’t all these Jewish names and characters interchangeable? The mother the daughter….they’re all the same. The only difference is chronological age. One is in her post-baby producing state and the other is in her pre-baby producing state, but essentially they’re one and the same.

Poor,poor Breindy. She doesn’t get a break-ever. No escaping to shul.

Rupture, I seriously hope you’re kidding.

Laura, I’m not kidding at all. Its not an indictment on woman as a whole, its an indictment on chasidish women. Orthodoxy coupled with Chasidish doctrine is so constricting in nature that it leaves no room for indviduality and distinctivness in character. Chasidish women to me all look the same. Shinedy is what Briendy was. Briendy is what Shiendy will be. There is a set lifestyle they’re all destined to live. The only difference between individuals is in what precise point on the prescribed life manual they happen to be at the moment.

Just out of curiosity (though this isn’t the point), how is this different from chassidish men?

“Daydreaming got me in the most trouble.”
in all of its humbleness, this is quite a telling little sentence. this whole vignette is like a daydream. the narrator seems to be in a cloud in all that he does. conversations seem to be meaningless until the moment he finally has to spend time alone with his wife, in which case, what might have been a conversation is simply a failed attempt to engage a woman who is exhausted from fulfilling her proscribed societal role. too bad she is already asleep. this should be the part of the narrator’s daily experiences from which he gets respite from the din of the rest of the world. tragically, the comparison of his wife and the shiksa who is “good looking for a shikse” hits home right here. if the narrator was married to the shiksa and not living this religious lifestyle, they would most likely have more time to be intimate, allowing him a much-needed escape from the outside world.

I see streimle your right, ones the daughter and ones the mom. Hershy I missed Nuchem!

Laura.

I didn’t intend to exclude Chasidish men from this delineation. I used women only as an example. Now that you have raised the question though, I do think that there is a slight difference between Chasidic men and woman regarding the ability to express individuality. Men are expected to be servants of god (ovdey hashem). There are many ways to serve God. Some men seek to excel in their studies, some are fervently involved in prayer and in piety, some make their mark by being absorbed in the world of halacha, and some express individuality by being intensely involved in doing kindness and charity to the fellow man. For a man there are more channels to develop and express individuality. Whereas for a woman the role she is supposed to perform is singular and unified. She has to be a tznius, have kids, raise them on the “old worn out way”, and die with tons of einiklech at her bedside.

Malkele,
First you confuse Sheindy with Breindy now HR with me.

Regarding the Grossman execution, at shaleshides this week, there weren’t any eidim witnesses present, and if there were they weren’t kosher eidim, and the victim wasn’t Jewish, and anyway death by lethal injection would be closest to combustion while decapitation is mandated for murder by Sanhedric law, hence, Grossman should be saved.

Shtreimel, I guess you’re interchangable too. Just like sheindy and Breindy.

Rupture: “Men are expected to be servants of god (ovdey hashem). There are many ways to serve God. Some men seek to excel in their studies, some are fervently involved in prayer and in piety, some make their mark by being absorbed in the world of halacha, and some express individuality by being intensely involved in doing kindness and charity to the fellow man.”

Women in traditional Judaism, and more specifically hasidism (since hasidim are the subject of our comments), are expected to be ovdey haShem. There are many ways they do so: Some excel in their studies, then become teachers and/or preachers; some are fervently involved in prayer and piety; some make their mark by being absorbed in the world of halacha, including writing books about,say, checking for worms, holding speeches about various halachas, teaching kallahs the appropriate halachas, etc.; and some express individuality by being intensely involved in doing kindness and charity to their fellow women (and men).

Additionally, most hasidic women become mothers. There are countless ways of being a mother, not to mention, countless outlets for creativity.

Finally, a large portion of hasidic women work, either part time or full time. Incredibly, there’s variety there too. *gasp*

In light of this, your statement, “Chasidish women to me all look the same” is more a reflection of the narrowness of your outlook than a reflection of hasidic women’s lives.

Anyhow, Rupture, my objection to your initial comment had nothing to do with gender. To make a statement that all chassidim are the same or all Asians are the same or all Blacks are the same is not only racist but also exceedingly shallow and entirely dismissive of the uniqueness of each human. You might as well say all people are the same. Aren’t we? As Cher sings,
“Everybody needs
Everybody Cries
Everybody Bleeds
Everybody Dies
Everybody Dreams
Everybody Wakes
Everybody makes mistakes.”

Humans are banal in their alikeness and deeply beautiful in their differences. That is, *all* humans. Yes, shefele, even chassidim. If you can open your eyes and heart enough to realize this, your life will be enriched. My promise to you.

>Finally, a large portion of hasidic women work, either part time or full time. Incredibly, there’s variety there too. *gasp*

Either a teacher or a therapist. Whole lotta choice there!

*bangs head on the wall* sincere apologies! I must be drunk lekoved rosh chodesh.

R&C -That comment wasn’t just offensive to Chassidic women in particular but to the entire female species as a whole. Which is why I am certain that I misread it. Because I am sure that you consider yourself far too evolved and liberal to be such a male chauvinist. Must’ve been me misinterpreting your words.

Yeah. That’s it. I must’ve misunderstood. You were most certainly not implying that all women are alike with no personality difference or pastimes or hang-ups. You couldn’t have been. Because you can’t possibly be that shallow (or racist) to assume that all women look alike and act alike and think alike – because their character traits are formed by societal norms. Or could I perhaps [i]have[/i] read it right?

Guess you really have never associated with women. That is the only possible explanation for not noticing the vast differences in what drives them and guides them and keeps them busy. Between what women choose to read, or write about. What they might listen to, lecture about, or generally discuss – there is so little doubt that it is all about the same subject. And amongst those women who obsess about mind-numbing fashion, or those who insist on decidedly doing their own thing, or those who are concerned with how the latest styles relate to Tznius – interchangeable, I tell ya.

And for those who are involved in chesed- there really would be no difference between those who are out of their homes (because they enjoy organizing outside events far more than being involved in their own homes) – and those that stay home to cook or bake for the needy. And of those who are fixated on their appearance, and those who obsess about working out, and those who prefer to pursue the art of their choice – indeed, who can tell a difference?

Between those who work. Yes indeed some teach and others are therapists. And others still are office managers and sales people, computer programmers and graphics designers, medical billing and bookkeeping, writers and editors, doulas and midwives, ‘alternative’ healing and chiropractors. And song writers. And yoga instructors. And I seriously can’t think of a single line where a chassidish woman can’t / hasn’t bested a man. But really – they’re the same people. I can barely tell ‘em apart.

Only difference is the amount of kids. And ages. Otherwise, they don’t even need names.

Guess you’re part of that extreme sect that doesn’t associate with the opposite sex –ever. Not even your sisters or daughters. Or you really are that daft.

At the chance of having all the esteemed meidelech here brand me a daft chauvinist racist I’ll explain how I understood R&C’s comment.

There’s no doubt that in general woman in out community have less choices than men. That is not to say that *some* women – especially those lucky enough to get online and comment on blogs (!) have different options, but the majority lives a monotonous life. Some by choice, most by ignorance and non-exposure to a different way of life.

That Sheindy is just another Breindy is a sad often observed fact that I hope not see happen with my own. It’s not something inherent in women, or our women. Just the way our system treats them.

Shtreimel –
I guess whether one chooses to read or write or cook or work with numbers, or computers, or fashion, or people, or kids – guess they must all have gone online to have their choices form.

After all, there is no possible way that good ehrlicha girls could possibly pursue a professional career or an enjoyable pastime without being ‘enlightened’ by the all corrupted influences of these online blogs.

Shtreimel: “That Sheindy is just another Breindy is a sad often observed fact”

That Zurech is just another Burech is a sad often observed opinion.

Here. Paste this in youtube’s search box: Malvina Reynolds – Little Boxes (Full Studio Version)

Tzippi and Laura,
Are you denying that men have more choices than woman?

(Laura, you’re a Weeds fan?)

Tzippi and Laura,
Are you denying that men have more choices than woman?

The world over.

And male chauvinists the world over are at fault for that too.

Doesn’t mean that the women don’t have different personalities,and preferences, and pastimes.

It’s them daft chauvinists’ fault. I guess we agree on that. We have no argument really. That was too fast and too easy. *sigh*

Yes, Shtreimel, I’m denying that the typical ehrliche chassidishe man has more choices than the typical ehrliche chassidishe woman. As I’ve just explained to you via another venue. And as I’ve sorta explained in my guest post on your blog several months (?) ago.

Laura, you’re denying that the typical erliche chasidishe man has more choices than the typical ehrliche chasidish woman?
How do you figure that?

In every way, Gilah. The typical ehrliche chassidishe man wakes up, runs to daven,eats breakfast, runs to work to support his family, leaves work to go to a shiur and to daven, eats dinner, drops into whichever simchas he must attend that night, and falls into bed. Doesn’t leave much room for individuality or interests.

The chassidishe woman generally follows a prescribed trajectory too, but because she isn’t *forced* to work to support her family (though she certainly has the choice), she often has the leisure time for fun activities or to develop some outside interests. Additionally, the protocol in chassidishe society is that girls and women are allowed more outlets than men are, including myriad plays or shows throughout the year, overnight trips for married women, etc.

Laura,
Other venue be damned, this is where we fight. We’ll make nice there.

I never accepted your explanation. apparently the men in this community think otherwise, while the women disagree. Really, I should leave it here. Men think that the women have it hard. Men say ‘shloi asani isha’. Women think they’re better off. Women say ‘she’asani kirtzionoi.

Wait, it was men that made the brachos in the first place. This is an old problem, I guess.

Shtreimel, we’re not talking about whether Judaism is patriarchal. Of course it is. We’re talking about day to day life and whether men in chassidishe society are more individualistic than women in same society. Stick to the subject.

I agree with R&C. Most chasidish women lead the same life style that is consisted of Kids, laundry, supper, and a secretarial job.
On the same note, what is the difference between a Rebbe who exchanges pampers for toddlers, and a Dayan who checks women’s underwear?

“Aren’t all these Jewish names and characters interchangeable?” might be true, but take the word ‘Jewish’ out. You might as well view the human race as a whole.
Black, Asian, Spanish, and Jewish. We all want the same. Skin color/ethnicity/occupation/and past experiences do not matter whatsoever. We are born the same way, and so we will die. *collectivity*

Oh, I was on topic. I Pointed out the apparent contradiction that men think women are worse off than they think of themselves. It reflects in the prayer choices too – created by men. Off topic?

Laura, overnight trips for married women?
Leisure time for fun activities? Outside interests?

Um, yes, Gilah. Do you live in Williamsburg? Pretty much happening all the time. Especially for the 30 and above groups, more common in the 40 and above.

Laura- Do you agree with what you are saying? Or are you just going to play devil’s advocate on every single topic?

No, I do not live in Williamsburg. Neither am I married (the reason above being part of it).
More common in 40 and above? Chasunah hopping?

Do you even reread what you write before you submit a comment?

Chana, not only do I agree with what I’m saying, I actually wrote my thesis on it. And–perhaps because the profs. who judged it were a more open-minded group than the unpious commentors–it was lauded.

Gilah, reread? Did I contradict myself in any way?

Qu’ils mangent de la brioche, right?

Men shoulder high status burdens, while women shoulder low status ones. That’s the difference.

Men are supposed to excel in scholarship while women are out going to plays. Scholarship is supposed to lead one to influence and respect, while plays allow one to relax briefly.

Got the idea?

Thus men gladly assume their masculine burdens, forgoing the feminine pleasantries, because it seems they consider it at the very least a fair deal in exchange for escaping lowly feminine status.

I think Laura is spot on on this one — as she was in her guest post on Shtreimel’s blog several months ago. While it is true that Judaism is patriarchical, in day to day life Chasidish men definitely have fewer options.

Men are exhorted to conform in a way that women aren’t. A man is expected to be in shul three times a day, have a shiur, AND bring home the bacon — or in this case the gefilte fish. A woman, unless she has an unusually large brood of children, has much more disposable time, so to speak. Indeed, to all those women who argue that Williamsburg is filled with yoga and pilates classes: pray tell, where are the equivalent options for men? Try finding a male partner for tennis, or bike riding, or basketball, or any other kind of extracurricular activity. You’ll be hard pressed.

In terms of career choices, unless the man is studying in kolel — a scenario with its own set of problems — he’s thrown to the task of providing for his family without any kind of vocational training whatsoever. In the meantime, women go to Touro to get their degrees in psychology, occupational therapy, or what have you. (After which they might very well choose to do NOTHING with those degrees, classifying their studies as something that was fulfilling and enjoyable. When did a man ever have that option?)

I’m not arguing women necessarily have it easy. But in terms of day to day options (perhaps well-symbolized in their clothing: men = black/white, women = lots of room for personal style), men certainly have fewer choices. Deny it all you please, and I might deny that I live on planet earth.

Sara — You’re talking about ideals and ideologies, not day to day life. The average guy hardly has a burden of scholarship. His burdens consist pretty exclusively of how to make the mortgage and car payments, and maybe the $1000 Bugaboo baby carriage that his wife insisted on even though there’s no way they can afford it.

Yet women have little power in that world. A man plays his cards right and he might end up a rav or a dayan. A woman can never rise higher than the level of a homemaker. Heck, many of them aren’t even allowed to drive.

In some way I agree with R&C, although, maybe for different reasons. Women in the chasidishe society are WAY more restricted and busy than man; therefore have less time/opportunity to mold or grow into a distinct personality. Yes, man might have more real-life pressure like earning an income, paying that mortgage, making sure the family has what they need, etc, all without the ability to predict their financial future. But let’s not confuse that with busy in the sense of having no time to do anything for themselves. Most men – regardless of how busy they are – have a set amount of hours during the day that’s dedicated for work. Women don’t have that. Some women may be doing less work overall than their husbands, but at the end of the day, their job NEVER ends. It’s constant! Yes, they can catch breaks in-between (and comment on blogs…), but they can hardly schedule things around their, unless it involves the kids as well.

The average chusid will find a million different ways to leave the house at night so he can have some time for himself. Can’t say this about the women. Ever noticed how when men watch the kids it’s called “babysitting”? When the wife leaves the house she has to “arrange” things, she has to make sure she’s got someone to watch the kids, put the milk in the fridge, etc. Men just get up and leave. “Ich gei dovenen mincha mariv. Zeits voil, kinderlech! Fulgts mommy. Bye”. (Whether they actually go to mariv is a whole other subject…). So at the end of the day, men have the opportunity to go out there and DO things, different things than what their routine is. Some decide to join the Hatzulah, Shomrim, chesed, chavirim, deliver shabbos peklech, go clubbin, or whatever. And when you do different things, join different groups, experiment, you subconsciously grow into a personality.

Laura,

Overnight trips??? Are you kidding? Men have “business” trips or the summer nights. Where exactly are the stay-home moms going???

Look, I have noticed a trend with you through your comments. You are definitely different than the average chasidishe women (I don’t even know whether you’re chasidish at all), and, for whatever reason, you pretend as though the rest of the chasidishe veiblich are like you! (guilt problem? Trying to psychoanalyze you here…) They are NOT! There are always exceptions to the rules; and you seem to be one of them, but don’t confuse that with what’s real out there. Most women don’t have full time jobs, most women can’t do overnight trips, most women don’t join gyms, on and on.

My guess is most of us on this blog are a little different than the typical in our society (after all, the name is “unpious”…). That said, when you comment on these articles, you need to try extra hard to remove yourself from the equation and to think about the “real” society and not what you would like for it to be (Tzipi, this is directed to you, as someone who consistently pretends that things are rosier than they really are…).

HR,

“Try finding a male partner for tennis, or bike riding, or basketball, or any other kind of extracurricular activity. You’ll be hard pressed.”

No way is that true nowadays. If you really want to partake in physical activity, it’s very easy to find partners these days. Is it the norm? Hellz no! But at least you have the option, should you choose to do it. Women, if they’re determined enough, they can do yoga and other “exercise-type” activity, but that’s where their freedom pretty much ends.

If you go by the official rules, then yes, men might be more restricted than women. But most restrictions for men are not enforced; you can easily bypass them (and lead a double life, in some ppl’s opinion), whereas women can’t due to their routine that keeps them homebound. In essence, their restrictions are enforced by the lifestyle they lead. They are TRAPED, in my opinion, and I feel bad for them! They don’t even know what they’re missing! Take a simple fact like driving: Women can’t drive, men can. Do you realize the amount of freedom, or lack thereof, driving provides???

Alter Ego, I’d kind of promised myself to step out of this discussion. I realized a long time ago that it’s almost impossible to change people’s minds regardless of how logical one is, so why spend time trying to do so? And still I somehow can’t seem to stop. Same now. Okay. One more.

You need to realize I’m talking about the *typical* ehrliche chassidishe man and woman. Not someone who goes clubbing or goes to any college other than Touro. The typical. Not the baseball player or tennis player or commentor on blogs. I’m talking about what’s *acceptable* in Willi and in BP, not what one can get away with. Because of course, if you play your cards right, you can get away with almost anything. But that’s not the point of this argument.

When I said there are women going on overnight trips, I am not talking about myself. I look around me. At friends and neighbors who are bonafide believers and members of chassidish society. And yes, they can easily go on overnight trips, or weekly trips to Florida, for example, with their female friends and talk about it to everyone. I know there are chassidishe guys who take day trips for skiing, etc., too, but they cannot announce it in bes medrash. That’s the difference. Women are allowed more freedom within acceptable chassidish society. (Btw, since so many of you seem to be dumbstruck at my assertion regarding overnight trips, why don’t you call the Hilton hotel in Long Branch, NJ, and ask them how many all female groups from Willi they get each year. And, of course, Long Branch is just one popular spot.)

Let me make the rest short. Re maariv. So men get their freedom during the evening, women during the day. Freedom is freedom. (I know each can occasionally switch. Don’t bore me by nitpicking.)

Re trapped. Everyone in hasidism is trapped. Nothing to do with male or female. Some don’t mind the entrapment, some do.

Re hatzolah shomrim, etc. Women have the same opportunities under different names.

Finally, don’t waste too much energy feeling sorry for trapped women. Since most of them (and most chassidishe men) appear to be generally content within this lifestyle, I’d save my rachmones for those more worthy of it.

Ok, I’m out. Let others do battle if they wish.

We have strong opinions on both sides. I’m going to dare say that the ‘accepted norm’ doesn’t really exsist in the chasidisher community as whole, so every commenter is reflecting on their own life. Laura, not one woman in my extended family ever went away overnight with friends, neither does any friend I know have a problem finding a bike or ball partner HR. I guess there are different shades to us but we each reflect on our own lives.

Isn’t that the truth with everything?

Laura,

“Just when I thought I was out they pulled me back in” (Godfather)

Btw, I agree with you on some things but don’t have the time to write about it now.

You are right, you can’t change ppl’s minds, especially not chasidim :). Try not to sweat it, though. I use this blog as a tool to say what I really think, not to change other ppl’s minds.

Listen, sweetie! Don’t go anywhere, we need your perspective here! Try to chilax a little It’s good to have you here!

“I saw a strange thing today. Some rebels were being arrested. One of them pulled the pin on a grenade. He took himself and the captain of the command with him. Now, soldiers are paid to fight; the rebels aren’t.” (The Godfather)

Thanks, Alter Ego. I couldn’t have said it better myself.

Rebel-
You’re right, I am speaking on more of a theoretical level, but theory exerts its influence on people’s psychology, even if they don’t live it out completely.

I think even those overburdened men still look down at women.

HR & laura: To round this out, you are right about that there are women who live up their freedom and demand lavish presents and expensive vacations from their hard-working husbands.
However, you have failed to recognize the working women who contribute to household expenses and understand the value of money.
The working women who still manage to raise their children and get all the housework and cooking done.
As AE said, ‘commenting on blogs’.

If this is about Chasidim on the fringe, wouldn’t it be more interesting to see how either gender compares to secular people?

“And the LORD said unto Moses, How long will this people provoke me? and how long will it be ere they believe me, for all the signs which I have shewed among them? How long shall I bear with this evil congregation, which murmur against me? I have heard the murmurings of the children of Israel, which they murmur against me.” (Numbers: 14, 11-27)

Ho you Unpious bunch, you have haggled, argued and quibbled and have yet to understand the extreme depths of my words. You are all worthy to sit in the crescent of the 71 elderly, in the chamber of hewn stones. I see that my words have been misunderstood by some, deceitfully misconstrued by others, and violently misinterpreted by the rest. Many thanks and blessings to those of you who understood what I said and defended my position.

I apply to the theory that most controversies can be resolved by arriving at an agreement on, and determining the essence of the terminology, terms and conditions of the argument. I think that there is a lack of clarity in the words and terminology used in this debate. Just to make sure that we are not arguing about things that can be solved with the proper application of nomenclature, I will restate what I said and take it from there.

My first statement was: “Does it really matter? Aren’t all these Jewish names and characters interchangeable? The mother the daughter….they’re all the same. The only difference is chronological age.” Notice the keyword “Jewish names and characters”. In the premise of the argument I use an all encompassing term- “Jewish”. There is no differentiation implied between men or woman, chasidish or non chasidish. I than go on to use the “shiendy-briendy” archetype, only as an example. I never intended my premise to implicate only chasidish woman, it was a general observation on Jewish identity and personality.

After some prodding by my sublime opponent, this point gets reiterated in my second and third comment, and I quote: “It’s not an indictment on woman as a whole; it’s an indictment on chasidish women. Orthodoxy coupled with Chasidish doctrine is so constricting in nature that it leaves no room for individuality and distinctiveness in character. Chasidish women to me all look the same. Shinedy is, what Briendy was. Briendy is, what Shiendy will be. There is a set lifestyle they’re all destined to live. The only difference between individuals is in what precise point on the prescribed life manual they happen to be at the moment.” After some more prodding by distinguishable assailant, my position is determined and clarified further: “I didn’t intend to exclude Chasidish men from this delineation. I used women only as an example. Now that you have raised the question though, I do think that there is a slight difference between Chasidic men and woman regarding the ability to express individuality. Men are expected to be servants of god (ovdey hashem). There are many ways to serve God. Some men seek to excel in their studies, some are fervently involved in prayer and in piety, some make their mark by being absorbed in the world of halacha, and some express individuality by being intensely involved in doing kindness and charity to the fellow man. For a man there are more channels to develop and express individuality. Whereas for a woman the role she is supposed to perform is singular and unified. She has to be a tznius, have kids, raise them on the “old worn out way”, and die with tons of einiklech at her bedside.” Notice the succession of my position. At first I contend that lack of personality is a general Jewish crisis. I use a subgroup (chasiddish women) to express this thesis. I then reiterate that I don’t think the problem is peculiar to woman as a whole or to chasidish woman. I than show that although chasisdish men are stricken with the same conundrum, there might be a slight difference.

Now before we get involved, let’s define the terms. My use of the term chasidish men and woman was intended to depict (as some have already explained) the run of the mill chasidish viebel and yingerman. The chasidish viebel that never touches a computer, has 13 kids at the ripe old age of 31, and is the prototypical homemaker. Again, nothing wrong with this archetype, we just need to know our characters before we can haggle about them. By chasidish man what’s being implied is the typical, pious, serious, man. He might be working, but he takes his religion seriously, his mission in life is to be prepared for the world to come. With these two terms I am excluding all the men that trim their beards, go to movies, hang out in clubs, put gel on their peyos, have extravagant social interactions with the opposite sex, sit in restaurants till the wee hours of the morning eating shwarma, wear bomber jackets in the winter and white polo shirts in the summer, wear tan or brown snow shoes, drive pickups, congregate in the anteroom of the shtibel, drive the latest model vehicle, is busy texting during sacrifices (kurbunes), etc. The term chasidish woman was meant to exclude (and I need some help here; I’m not very familiar with the breed), those who drive, still only have one child despite being at the ripe old age of 31, go out dancing at night with their girlfriends, comment on blogs, have a facebook account, have an email address, have a blackberry curve, think that it’s all right to educate themselves, don’t shun anything that has the remote property of being somewhat educational and intelligent, reads the US weekly, or the star, or any of these magazines that say who is cheating on whom, who is breaking up, and who is getting together.

Another point we have to clarify. We are not arguing who has more freedom. We are not arguing if we live in a male dominant society. We are also not arguing whether some men and woman have indeed succeeded in developing distinct personalities. We are discussing the personality crisis that exists and is peculiar to a certain mold of people. Sadly, this class of people constitutes a vast majority of the chasidish/orthodox population.

With that said here is the culmination of my argument. Chasidish woman have very few venues to express individual distinctiveness and in general, so do men. I’m not saying a chasidish woman can’t be this or that; we are not talking about vocation. I know she can be a teacher and a preacher. We are talking about developing her inner self, developing her personality, expressing individualism, being distinct and separable from her fellow coreligionist, being distinguishable in a mass of personalities, expounding inner beliefs and exhibiting them on the exterior, and leave a slight impression on her created world. The slight difference is that the typical chasidish man has more of a venue to develop his personality and leave a niche and a dent on “his” world. As I have said, he has channels where he can exhibit distinguish-ability that is either not available to the chasidish viebel on a whole, or to the same degree.

How am I a chauvinist for expressing this thought? Do I say that it should be this way? This is my observation, and I’m greatly saddened by it. It’s just one of the many problems that effects the growth of this august community and that hinders it from progressing.

Laura, are we still in 6th grade that we have to reestablish the golden principle before every discussion: “every rule has its exception and every generalization has its extraneous circumstances that renders the generalization mute?” Of course we all know that. I didn’t think that I have to preface every argument that I offer up with the standard prerequisite to every intelligible debate. Amongst this very intelligent crowd this should be self understood. It should be and it is the natural clause to every debate that is being hammered out here. I was pointing to a specific group of individuals that in my opinion seem to have a problem in unison.

To say that I intended to throw a whole race and society under the bus is almost as shallow as saying that we can’t say anything about the personality of a nation or a culture. Let me get this straight, since every human being is different, there is no such thing as differences in culture? How can we make statements about distinct cultures? A culture unifies a whole group of individuals and slaps them with a set of characteristics and mannerisms. If what you are arguing is viable, we can do away with the sublime studies of anthropology, most social sciences, a lot of the humanities, and population studies. If there is nothing we can, or are allowed to say, that would generalize and would be the unifying point between two individuals, I have nothing else to say. I am mute.

And did you really think that slapping the “shefele” epithet on me will soften my position? If you did you were gravely mistaken. Sobriquets and appellations don’t do it for me no more. You can bury all your “neshumele”, “tzadikel”, “voiyle”, and “shiyne” tags in the back of your closet, don’t use them on this platform. We will fight like warriors and triumph like knights on this battlefield. The battlefield of ideas, concepts, themes, theories and words, we won’t use deceiving cheap tricks like name calling and personal affronts. Don’t enrich my life please; enrich your owns by making promises to yourself, if you want. To the victor the spoils!

The onus on women who flout the rules, even the minor and petty ones, is a lot heavier and harsher than on men. Somehow, men are given a little leeway – they are expected to perhaps bend the rules and conventions a bit, even if they aren’t lauded for it. Women get zero space. Zip.

Sure, they can do yoga and pilates. But that’s only because yoga and pilates are currently seen as ‘acceptable’, and because yoga and pilates are done while fully dressed, in someone’s basement. And yeah, if you’re a guy and you play baseball in the park, people will make plenty of snide comments behind you’re back. But if you’re a woman who tries to ‘chap a jog’ in the park, that’s the social equivalent of jumping off a bridge (or at least a 2 story building).

Even the aforementioned Touro college education is not seen on the same plane for men and women. Men have the excuse of ‘parnassah’. Increasing numbers, although it’s still a trickle, of the-real-frum-and-erliche-chassidishe men have turned to a Touro-type of education in business, technology, and education. The only one still railing against it is Menashe Fulop in Die Tzeitung. It is at least tolerated. Not so for women. A woman wanting to pursue an education will immediately get branded with a scarlet R for “rebel”. “Whaddaya mean, a degree? Isn’t having kinderlach, that holy goal of every Jewish woman, good enough for you?!”

Along the same lines, being a female non-conformist is a heck of a lot worse than being a guy in a bomber jacket in the winter. At any time of year. In ye grande olde hypocrisy of chochmas nashim bonsah baisah, the families of “wayward” women are punished and ostracized much more so than when the offending spouse is male.

Skeleton:

“The onus on women who flout the rules, even the minor and petty ones, is a lot heavier and harsher than on men.”

And

“But if you’re a woman who tries to ‘chap a jog’ in the park, that’s the social equivalent of jumping off a bridge”

Yes, but many women go to a Hilton in NJ for an overnight!

Laura,

I realized a long time ago that it’s almost impossible to change people’s minds regardless of how logical one is, so why spend time trying to do so.

Arguments are not about changing people’s minds but about delving into a subject in detail. I’m sure you know the fundamental fallacy in that expectation.
I have an idea. Why don’t you publish your [abridged] thesis on this site, so we can discuss this subject thoroughly?

Yes, but many women go to a Hilton in NJ for an overnight!
Shpitzle, right

The most “interesting” things they do there are probably, in the following order

1. use the spa
2. watch TV
3. stay up yapping until 3 AM.

None of which qualifies as a half-decent pastime, and none of which takes a half-wit of personality. Not to mention, you can go to a spa or yap until 3 in the morning in Williamsburg too.

So they travel for an hour-and-a-half to watch some TV? Yay. That qualifies as a bonafide streak of independence and individuality. Right.

Even the aforementioned Touro college education is not seen on the same plane for men and women. Men have the excuse of ‘parnassah’. Increasing numbers, although it’s still a trickle, of the-real-frum-and-erliche-chassidishe men have turned to a Touro-type of education in business, technology, and education. The only one still railing against it is Menashe Fulop in Die Tzeitung. It is at least tolerated. Not so for women. A woman wanting to pursue an education will immediately get branded with a scarlet R for “rebel”. “Whaddaya mean, a degree? Isn’t having kinderlach, that holy goal of every Jewish woman, good enough for you?!”

Skeleton: It’s funny I got an opposite picture (in a community like Williamsburg) women can much easier get away with foe example going to Touro taking positions as therapists and social workers and no one gives a damn, a women has anyway to much time they say, While men will be scorned and criticised for going to ‘collage’ which was g’asert by the holy tzadikim.

The truth I think, the community today can have only minor influence in a personal decision such as going to Touro, it’s the immediate surroundings i.e. spouse, father mother a Hasid will have to put up with and is hard to ignore.

And I think that both men AND women can get a college degree without any repercussions or being branded with a “scarlet R for rebel.”

My husband and I are both proof of that. No one gives a damn about our career choices. And they’re not any of those professions listed above.

Oh,and to clarify where I come from, the parents care about what pantyhose I wear and what kind of eyeglasses my husband has. But not about our college degrees.

Oh,and to clarify where I come from, the parents care about what pantyhose I wear and what kind of eyeglasses my husband has. But not about our college degrees.

That makes little sense to be blunt. Your parants are the exception and not the norm. In Yiddish they would be called אביסל קאקא and it’s written אין מביאון ראיה מן השוטים (just kidding).

Shpitz.

You took the words out of my mouth. Arguments are all about getting to the bottom of an issue. It’s about leaving no stone unturned. The focal point of the debate is not to exert a verbal defeat and solicit a submission from the opponent. It’s those arguments that are only orchestrated for those ungodly reasons that procure nasty rhetorical strategies, and cunning chicanery. A debate that is held for the sole purpose of reaching a modicum of discourse and understanding of the subject at hand, is beautiful and sublime.

And, Laura, if you would approach a debate with the right mind set you would find that your mind can change once in a while. You won’t find it impossible to agree to your opponent on occasion. Of course we don’t want to completely strip you of your identity. We don’t want you to give up all your beliefs to the far superior opponents you have unfortunately collided with.

That’s a great suggestion Shpitz. Why don’t you publish that essay so we can all see it?

The whole slave thing bothered me as well. Of course back then, I didn’t know the first thing about American slavery, or slavery in general. The whole notion that you could “own” a person just seemed wrong. Of course, now I look back and realize that I was thinking for myself and quietly rebelling even at that tender age.

>No one gives a damn about our career choices.

You mean you didn’t tell anyone about them.

I think that within chasidus their are varying levels. Satmerer women aren’t allowed to be in a play, but may watch a bobover woman in one.

Yes the overnight trips exist. They are more prevelant in societies where women are so segregated from the men that they go on holiday alone. Very hardcore vizhnitz or satmer who have mothering burnout or just need a break – they are no more than theoretical partners with thier husbands so they holiday with their friends.

I think the difference is that men dont need to answer to anyone. A woman, even if she doesn’t explain to her husband what she is doing all day, she will have planned it and answered for it to her mother or sisters. A man can just leave the house.

Driving is also a huge part of this. Just going for a drive with music playing is a huge opportunity for relaxation. Women dont have that.

Women can’t smoke (not that they necessarily want to)

Then again, women can shop in department stores and on the high street. Men go to g and g.

>>You mean you didn’t tell anyone about them.<<

I'm not sure why you find it so hard to believe that we can have professional degrees from colleges other than Touro without anyone being against it. But hey,I'm not out to prove anything or convince anyone, so believe what you will.

Yes the overnight trips exist. They are more prevelant in societies where women are so segregated from the men that they go on holiday alone. Very hardcore vizhnitz or satmer who have mothering burnout or just need a break – they are no more than theoretical partners with thier husbands so they holiday with their friends

Or they just decide that they want a girls’ night out – even though they are planning a getaway with their loving spouses just a week later. (And had one a week before.)

I’ve definitely spent more time in hotels with my husband than with friends, but somehow we never considered that a reason to somehow gauge whether or not girls’ night was on or not.

See? There’s this odd thing. Some people have loving relationships and trust to go with it. Some women actually have lives that are full and meaningful – and they live it up with all life’s got to offer.

Guess it must be my ‘rose colored glasses’. Not only do I see life as better – but it actually is. Magical tool. I’d recommend you invest in one.

You girls have to stop with the “girl’s-night-out-trips-to-Jersey” discussion. My imagination is running rampant. Have some mercy, please!!

The discussion in this thread that’s veering between different issues and values for the hassidic genders, can be best encapsulated in the transportation issues.

-The men work hard, like HR claims, as their responsibilities and workload are undeniably time consuming and exhausting. They need to spend their off days driving their wives and kids to weddings, appointments, school or Daffy’s (from where she appears six hour later with credit card debt that hovers over her bags like an evil spell).
-Then again, the women can hardly get from point A to point B without their men (excluding rare public transportation – a difficulty for mothers), and spend their precious Daffy time rushing from rack to rack for a similar match for the other girls to the one Magil metsia, as the impatient man waits outside.

Whoever is at a greater disadvantage is anyone’s own judgment, depending on subjective prioritization of values (independence as the supreme value? Less responsibility as the supreme value?). Personally, being the anti-semite I’ve become, I’d easily compromise on both genders being equally, terribly disadvantaged ;).

In any event, the gender issue is a lot greater. Biological or sociological gender issues, the distinct male/female sub-societies that differ considerably as a result of segregation, attitude, unique families — it all plays a role. It would be great to hash the subject out without getting personal. Specifically I wonder about the ‘bliss’ (to borrow the cliche) of hassidic women’s ignorance. Are hassidic women at a distinct benefit for their simple, predictable, peaceful lives that results from the sheltering?

I’m getting involved here kind of late, and it seems everything I would have said has already been said (by skeleton and alter ego).
To all the Lauras, Mayas, and Tzippies of my world, explain this to me.
I’m a (pseudo) chasidishe woman with a *real* career. I am also an anomaly, a freak, something to be jealous of, and to some, something to be pitied.
If I was the norm, why would that be the case?

Maya, the school you are going to, is it secular and coed? Did you tell your parents and in laws the *whole* story? I know that I didn’t dare.

Hoezen,

you just said it yourself, because you’re a freak…:)

The Chasidishe women commenting on this blog have perhaps managed to maintain their individuality, achieved self- actualization and personal autonomy. But we haven’t done that *because*we are Chasidish. We have been able to do that *in spite of* being Chasidish.

Laura and Tzippy will have you believe, and try to convince themselves, that they are the rule. I know, that for better or worse, I am the lonely exception.

Hoezen,

I commend people like Laura, who despite being different still feel part of the community they’re in. In most cases these people fool themselves, but are happier nonetheless. Being different can feel rewarding at times, but can also result in feeling lonely, feeling as though you don’t belong, you don’t fit (you’re a misfit…). And it’s not a fun feeling!

Hoezen, Tzippi is having us believe that hassidic life is some Utopia and La La land of matrimonial paradise and abundances free-floating love and friendship. Let’s not kid ourselves about colleges and vacations and the euphoric Stepford Wives. Every sensible person can look at the reality of birth rate, work rate, shidduch system, poverty level and see through the joke of that ridiculous representation.

But Laura’s arguments don’t disregard the reality of hassidic restrictions but rather makes a point that this simple lifestyle works for many women, and is how they live as a matter of their own preference/choosing. She’s not using herself as an example, only her position as an insider as authoritative. I do wonder about the ‘bliss’ of hassidic women’s ignorance. That is, while we agree that hassidic women don’t have opportunity for self actualization, is there a flip advantage to that? Are hassidic women at a distinct benefit for their simple, predictable, peaceful lives that results from the sheltering?

Alter, I’d be hard-pressed to believe Laura feels part of the community. She seems to feel above the community. Like their lawyer– not them, not them at all, only defending them. Rebels seems to have a polarizing affect on her, and she argues accordingly.

Reminds me of the woman that is a lawyer in the KJ area. She goes around to the media advertising herself as the KJ woman’s role model, while she herself was never a part of the community, would never be allowed to take up residence in the holy shtetle, and would get her kids into their school system never in the hanhallu’s lifetime. Believe me, that woman is not part of the community, regardless of her many self-promotional press conferences she gets after every KJ scandal. If she’d pull over a plastic chair with one of the many groups of shtricking mothers that are sitting outside in the summer, no one would talk to her more than a few guarded niceties. Part of the community?

Outsiders might think.

Shpitzle S., I agree. Some lala women may feel part of the community but in no way does that mean the feeling is reciprocated.

Women like Tzippi and Laura may feel like they are part of the community because they tend to surround themselves with a clique of friends who think as they do. This, in essence, creates a sort of protective “bubble” around them, which insulates them from the communal disapproval and tongue-clucking going on around them.

It is only when they deny that the disapproval and tongue-clucking exists at all that they turn from a herd of zebras into a pride of ostriches.

Funny thing about this ‘lala’ land of mine. We’re happy. Some of my sibs and cousins are college grads (guys and gals), many have professional careers, and others opt to peruse shopping malls until they’re familiar with every brand’s latest designs and the ticket price and discounts each store offers.

Some have perfect loving marriages, some haven’t grasped the concept of romance, and I’ve heard that some are miserable. And while I’m sorry for misery – wherever it occurs, I wouldn’t bet that their problems are community related.

Indeed every family is different, and I most certainly can’t comment on any other than my own. Which is why it was all I ever attempted to do: to describe my very own, very Chassidish life.

And I hate to spoil the pity party – but it’s a happy one.

Why this concern with how much the community loves me (which coincidentally – they do!)

As far as I’m concerned I’m the community. I’m involved in many aspect (and respected! to boot).

Must be because of… help me here people. I can’t seem to figure it out.

>>Maya, the school you are going to, is it secular and coed? Did you tell your parents and in laws the *whole* story? I know that I didn’t dare.<<
I'm doing online work in a field that very few people here pursue, but my husband went to a secular, coed school. And it's not a secret from anyone. Everyone knows about it.

Funny though, the Crocs he wears to shul are a much bigger and more spoken-about issue than his schooling.

Yes Tzippi, I have to agree with you, Williamsburg pulsates with College degree moms, Lawyers, Doctors, Nurses and what not…You are on the button! I’m sure your family consists of the most educated people this planet has to offer, unfortunately nobody in willy has met them yet…

Keep on trying because it’s not working so far, you’re exhausting all of your energy here for nothing, might wanna save it for that Yoga class in someone’s dinning room…..

And I’m sure you’re extremely in love with that husband of yours, whom you had the merit of having a *beshow* for a full 25 minutes…what a wonderful life you have…keep on trying to spin and bluff the world.

Insider, I’m not sure the point was whether Williamsburg women HAVE degrees, as much as whether they CAN obtain one, if they choose to.

And just because you haven’t met those people who do, doesn’t meant they don’t exist.

Tzipi,

You remind me of someone. In my family, no one talks about how “happy” they are, except for the one sister that married really, REALLY bad! And NO ONE believes her, or you! If you were truly happy you wouldn’t be running around announcing it to everyone and their mother! After all, wasn’t it you who wrote the “oh God” article? Of course you didn’t know what he wanted when he “pinched your butt”. You were too busy staring at the ceiling, wondering whether it’s time for another painting!

Alter you are probably right. The only happy people are the ones here who keep saying how miserable our lives are. Those that actually enjoy it must be the truly miserable one. There’s logic there somewhere… I’m just struggling to follow it.

As for my “Fakin It” article. lol. Most fun article to write, ever. But it would be sad if life were like that. Wouldn’t it?

Tzipi,

Most people on this blog feel comfortable speaking the truth because of the anonymity it provides. But for some reason, you come off as dishonest. I’m sorry, that’s just how I feel. My guess is you’re doing it because you have an agenda, consciously or subconsciously. There’s no need to BS anyone here. You’re not debating people on the outside looking in. We’re INSIDERS, we all know what’s up! I can write a megilah on marriage in our community, it’s just not the right time. I’m sure we’ll get to that eventually.

Maya, I was referring to Tzippi’s comment on how educated her family supposedly is, – an entire family of educates! nonetheless! – as if that’s true and that’s the norm. Of course you CAN obtain a degree, look at Laura, however, you can count on one hand how many there actually are who do have.

Insider-
I said: Some of my sibs and cousins are college grads (guys and gals), many have professional careers…

“An entire family of educates”? Hardly. And many a professional career – without the college degree. (I’ll give myself as an example, but dunno why I bother?)

Alter –
Oddly enough I think I am least anonymous on this here site. And that doesn’t make me more or less honest. I’m me – and proud of it. (Obnoxiously so, as many will tell you.) But the lack of anonymity also means that all those on here who know me, know that I say it like it is. It’s not about lying to you guys, it’s merely about suggesting that you people recognize the sunshine. Just for a moment really. That’s not askin’ for too much. Is it? Just take the time to look around and realize that life doesn’t always suck.

Tzippi, who died and made you the Unpious.com shrink? Or at the very least, it’s Optimist du jour?

Don’t make us all out to be miserable kvetches who never experience a happy moment in our lives. Many or most of us have probably have lives that equal yours in fulfillment and richness. We come to unpious.com for honest intellectual debate and fresh perspectives on real issues as they pertain to our lives. Nobody here gives a rodent’s posterior about your personal life…so how does it become the bottom line of every discussion in which you are involved?

Does anyone else wonder whether Tzippi is a real person with a lot of invented facts or whether she is an invented person designed to supply Unpious.com with an antagonist?
If the latter, then perhaps the inventor’s next challenge would be to create an antagonist whose facts about Hasidic communities are accurate.

Automated computer response:

::CYBORG.TZIPPI.HAS.BEEN.REBOOTED.
::IN.ALTERED.STATE.IS.BUSY.DEFENDING.DISTANT.GALAXIES.AT.THE.MOMENT.
::SPACESHIP.TO.RETURN.SHORTLY.

Aha! I knew it.
Let’s hope whoever reboots you debugs you first.

::REBOOT.COMPLETED.IN.DEFAULT.FORMAT.
::DISAPPOINTMENT.TO.SOME.ENSURED.
::PREEMPTIVE.APOLOGIES.EXTENDED.

Tzip

“But the lack of anonymity also means that all those on here who know me”

Did it cross your mind that I too subscribe to that little group of people here, thus the exact reason I cringe at every spin you weave??

“….all those on here who know me know that I say it like it is”

Oh, Wishful thinking honey, nobody takes your words here for what they are…so far I didn’t find a person that does.

Oh, and no tzippy, no, not at all, we’re not miserable people at all here, we enjoy great lives, enjoy our precious zeeseh kindelech, we have exciting careers – highly professional ( at least me and another commentator here I know of) enjoy life to the fullest, (more than you ever will – cuz we are men and not trapped! to borrow a phrase from a friend) we party, we travel, we socialize and we fantasize, however, spinners we are not, and it’s time you put down that spinning weapon of yours.

And let me tell you, I’m not reveling at the fact that everybody jumps at you here, nobody’s intention is to hurt you, you’re probably a very nice person – since you’re very talented, talented people are very warm people – it’s just that you’re simply trying to paint a picture that doesn’t exists.

I can hear Laura’s point, that at least according to doctrine Chasidishe women have way fewer religious obligations than men. I will also concede that if she “nurses clean” and doesn’t pop one out every twenty months the women might have more leisure time to cultivate interests and develop talents than the husband, the breadwinner, who doesn’t have that luxury.

But Skeleton is spot on when she claims that what the typical viebel will do in Florida is watch TV, go shopping, and run to the spa.
And even apologist Maya admitted that “I’m not sure the point was whether Williamsburg women HAVE degrees, as much as whether they CAN obtain one, if they choose to”.
Why is it then? Why is it that Chasidishe women have such narrow and constricted interests? If in theory we are given the choice and opportunity to do so much, why don’t we?
What is it? Are we given the books but never taught to read? Do they take us to the restaurant but kill our taste buds on the way?

>>And even apologist Maya admitted that “I’m not sure the point was whether Williamsburg women HAVE degrees, as much as whether they CAN obtain one, if they choose to”.<<

It wasn't an admission; it was an observation on what the conversation was about.

Beautiful piece. I tried to imagine it all happening in your house. Ha ha. I use to day dream alot in Cheider, and I suffered for that. I understood that R&C that they identify with their children. They may do alot of things, but all they identify with is their children. Is it having children, how the kids in dressed, and taking care of the kids.

In a valiant effort to restore some semblance of sensibility to this thread, how about the following stimulation?

“Specifically I wonder about the ‘bliss’ (to borrow the cliché) of hassidic women’s ignorance. Are hassidic women at a distinct benefit for their simple, predictable, peaceful lives that results from the sheltering?”
“I do wonder about the ‘bliss’ of hassidic women’s ignorance. That is, while we agree that hassidic women don’t have opportunity for self actualization, is there a flip advantage to that? Are hassidic women at a distinct benefit for their simple, predictable, peaceful lives that results from the sheltering?” (Shpitzele Shtrimpkind)

I do. I am an ardent adherent to the sublime concept of “Ignorance is Bliss”. While I don’t expect this position to go over smoothly with some of you; the Greeks did believe that the root of all evil is ignorance. I do believe that in the peculiar case of chasidish women we can all agree that ignorance is indeed bliss.

Chasiddih woman lead extremely stressful and burdensome lives. They have a gazillion kids and all the trimmings that come with it. It’s incomprehensible to imagine the pain and anguish the stereotypical chasiddish women would find herself in, were she to encounter the loss of innocence. As is, most people are ill equipped (mentally, psychologically, and emotionally) to deal with the loss of God. The loss of God would compound itself tenfold with the chasiddish woman. Ignorance is the fuel that keeps her engine running. I think that chasiddish woman in general, are genuinely content about their stressful and overburdened lives. They take it all in stride, and I can only attribute that to their steadfast belief in the supremacy and vitality of their mission.

R&C: In a valiant effort to restore some semblance of sensibility to this thread, how about the following stimulation?

Your valiant effort notwithstanding, you are the last person who can bring a semblance of sensibility to this forum. Your comments, including this last one, are the least sensible of all comments here.

In my valiant effort to restore normalcy and good spirit to this thread, I wont respond.

RandC,

I dare say, cows are happier than human beings. They definitely don’t have to deal with the existential angst that I grapple with. Their ignorance is bliss.
Damn. I wish I was a cow.

Hoezen,

I will also concede that if she “nurses clean” and doesn’t pop one out every twenty months the women might have more leisure time to cultivate interests and develop talents than the husband, the breadwinner, who doesn’t have that luxury.

The presumption of “nursing clean” and not “popping one out every twenty months” is a very iffy one, because practically speaking, it is very rare for women to experience lactational amenhorrea past 15 months or so (when a child is mostly subsisting on solids) and therefore to space pregancies more than 2 or 2.5 years apart. Unless she uses contraception, which I’m sure is perfectly OK according to Tzippi Langstrumpf, but otherwise quite frowned upon.

Even so, which “talents” are under discussion? Marine biology and ski jumping are out, I presume. It always comes back to the same things: home economics, personal care, fashion, and for the real “daring” ones, the keyboard or art. That’s a real deep list, right there.

The paradox is that most chassidishe women are indeed content, even if not totally so. It might be the little things that irk them, like the unexpected pregnancy 4 months after childbirth, the divorcee who finds herself unable to support her kids, or the woman whose husband says no to makeup. They don’t question the very foundation of their chassidic existence, or the way they are treated by a society that is not merely patriarchal (which is bearable even if not preferable) but deeply misogynistic. This same staid happiness and fulfillment is found the world over among women, even in cultures whose behavior and attitudes towards women shock us in their violence and cruelty. Perhaps women have evolved that way as a coping mechanism in the face of men’s greater physical prowess.

What it doesn’t mitigate is the wrong perpetrated. A willing victim is still a victim. There’s no symbiosis in the natural state of chassidishe patriarchy and misogyny. The women are victimized. The only ones who figuratively ‘get back at the system’ and turn it into a symbiotic relationship are the super-b!tchy women who manage to dominate their husbands and make them even more unhappy than they themselves are.

RC
Do you realize that what you’re saying is in essence a catch 22?
the second this chasiddish woman starts adopting a new outlook, of course she won’t pursue and take stride in this overwhelming lifestyle!? You can’t argue bliss is “better” for their lifestyle because these 2 ideas are simply incogruous.

Rupture and Continuity

Chasiddih woman lead extremely stressful and burdensome lives. They have a gazillion kids and all the trimmings that come with it. It’s incomprehensible to imagine the pain and anguish the stereotypical chasiddish women would find herself in, were she to encounter the loss of innocence. As is, most people are ill equipped (mentally, psychologically, and emotionally) to deal with the loss of God. The loss of God would compound itself tenfold with the chasiddish woman. Ignorance is the fuel that keeps her engine running. I think that chasiddish woman in general, are genuinely content about their stressful and overburdened lives. They take it all in stride, and I can only attribute that to their steadfast belief in the supremacy and vitality of their mission.

Who’s talking about the loss of [belief in] God? The “ignorance” discussed upthread is referring to ignorance of the world out there; to a very narrow existence without much knowledge of opportunities or variety. The so-called “spice of life”.

You also underestimate the natural inclination most women have towards childbearing and homemaking – a mistake made by feminists for decades. Childbearing/childrearing and caring for a home and family are in themselves uniquely satisfying and have an allure all their own, a universal sentiment. A woman’s complete existence can’t be invalidated simply by loss of belief in a Creator. Which I’m not advocating, btw, because you’re right about the necessity of God in their lives.

Hate to break this to you RnC, but many chasidishe women hardly ever really think about god, the afterlife, reward and punishment. And when she does think about these religious constructs, its not necessarily when she finds out she is pregnant again.
The vast majority of chasidishe women live the life, not because they truly believe in it, but because EVERYBODY does.

Ober yeder giet in cointry. Ober kiener trokt nisht kien vaise coat. Ober yeder shert zich die hor. Ober kiener fort nisht oif a bike noch di barmizva. Ober ale maine friends oben shoin ziben kinder. Taake suri hot nor fir. Min hastam hot zie nisht kien sholem bies.

What does God have to do with this?

Hozen- same here. I wish I was a cow too. Grass is sooooo tasty. They have everything going for them, of course only until the Rubashkin’s show up. And, I agree with your second comment too. Chasidsh woman are not inherently convinced on a philosophical and theological plane about the credence of their lifestyle and that’s why it works for them. Because they are ignorant about the practices and tradition they follow, they fail to realize that they exist in a disadvantageous sphere, compared to secular society. Were they to be aware of God and all other sublime concepts, there is the extreme danger that doubt might creep in. We don’t want that. We want them to remain ignorant, because ignorance is bliss. Hail ignorance!!

“Ober yeder giet in cointry. Ober kiener trokt nisht kien vaise coat. Ober yeder shert zich die hor. Ober kiener fort nisht oif a bike noch di barmizva. Ober ale maine friends oben shoin ziben kinder. Taake suri hot nor fir. Min hastam hot zie nisht kien sholem bies.”

Artfully comprised!! This just sums it all up. You just reduced a whole aggregation of distinct individuals to a set stereotype. These lines should be the opening passage to every sociological study on chasidish life!!

Insider- read again. Ignorance is perfect for the chasiddish woman because of the special circumstances that is her reality. I don’t see how these this premise and conclusion is contradictory. Further clarification is desperately needed. Maybe I didn’t read into your words correctly. Will you be so kind?

Skeleton- I only used the extreme example (loss of belief in the one and only) to extrapolate my point. The same would be true, were they to realize that an alternative lifestyle is a possibility. Child rearing can be, and I’m sure is, very fulfilling to many women, but not to the extreme we have taken it to. I like your addition to our great language, “upthread” kudos!

Rupture, dien yingle fin zex yoor alt trokt noch a kapel mit zien nomen oif dem? Bist bam das?

Hahaha. I didnt want it to become personal, but since you started I’ll concur.

Ich hub bamerket az dien zihn hut tzviy white lines oif zyin sneakers, er is shoin acht!! die minst as s’past? In farvus miz diyn mon giyn mit a checkered s’veter? Farvus ken ehr nisht trugen die “g’ehrige” “nurmaleh” shvartze s’veter voos Viesneres farkoiyft? In die alef bies tchoo tchoo train of die kaple fin diyn fir yerigs, iz shoin oich abisel tzi shryedig!! Vemen mynst di az die impresset? Nisht mich!!

Rupture,
Besser men ret nisht. Ziet di host gemooft fin villiamsburg tzi boro park hosti zich genimen glitchen. Ken zien viel dien vab hot ongehoiben tzi lienen die country yossi magazine. Yente fraide zokt mich az dien tochter trokt hient shvarze tietz im shabbos. Yoi seiz mamish chaloshes.

Ven die volst nur gevist az ich voin shoin in hynt in Flatboosh vulsti min-hastam bichlal nisht geredt mit mir. Ven die volst gevist az mien vaab flegt lynen die country yossi ven inz huben nuch gevoiynt in die projects volsti nisht geredt tzi mich demults oich nisht. Hynt lynt zi shoin die “Binneh”, in s’badert mich takeh zyer, uber voos ken ich tiehn? Zi hut oich ungehoyben oiysheren Nuchem Rozenberg’s “hiese linye”, zi iz gevurren a gantze oifgeklerte, a m’limedes’te, zi halt az melamdim turren nisht zaan kaan pedophiles. Ven ich bin geven in chyder iz pedophilia geven a requirement far di job, a nyer velt! Pedophilia villen zy oich avek nemen fin inz!!

Nuch a mazel zy trugt shvartze shtrimp. Besser vi uhn kaan shtrimp b’chlal. Shimme shumayim, die hyntige miedlech!! Inz darfen huben a Rebbe z’chises yugen ulyni, tzi avakshtelen die yesoides nuchamul!!

R&C

The same would be true, were they to realize that an alternative lifestyle is a possibility. Child rearing can be, and I’m sure is, very fulfilling to many women, but not to the extreme we have taken it to.

Only to some degree. A chassidishe man’s life revolves around a LOT of religious ordinances and rituals. When a guy “loses his religion”, he feels he has wasted thousands of hours and a whole lot more on something that isn’t. That’s a hard and bitter pill to swallow. Not so for women. Childrearing, even if only of 2 or 3 children, is an extreme. It is the one “pastime” that occupies a person 24/7. Women in the secular world are usually just as much into mommying their 2 children as chassidishe mothers are, and most women do want to have children. So a chassidishe woman’s life isn’t invalidated just because she discovers agnosticism. Her only regrets can be for an alternate life she could’ve had (which is probably only pertinent to very few women who are creative types), for a little more freedom (the discussion at hand), or to have had half the children she did…which is something most mothers hopefully don’t regret doing.

Skeleton, your observation is spot on. I’ve often wondered about the secular mother of two and a half kids who seems to be just as overwhelmed in raising them as our mother of ten.

Skeleton,
“So a chassidishe woman’s life isn’t invalidated just because she discovers agnosticism”

How about lament the fact that they were forced to marry someone they didn’t really choose? and waste a lifetime with?

Insider – Good question. I’m not sure if this sentiment is as popular among chassidishe women as it is among their male counterparts. Aderabah, if it is, enlighten me (keeping in mind that exceptions of course exist, like women in bad or horribly-mismatched marriages, not the average woman in a ho-hum one).

Perhaps it has to do with the docility of the women and the fact that their lives revolved around their children. The husbands are often enough, unfortunately, “interchangeable” (although fortunately, never indispensable :-))

Skeleton, secular moms with 2 children aren’t as busy with their kids as Chasidishe moms. 1) When the kids start to grow up, there aren’t another 2 in the line. 2) They get them much later. Not like us at 19 years old, but at 30 or sometimes 40 years old. 3) They dont identify with it, and they foot see it as their main goal.

Skeleton
Are you telling me you don’t know of women who feel they have been paired up with guys totally not their type and feel they have been robbed of spending their lives in a much happier and love-filled marriage?

Insider, honestly, I’m not sure that I do. Yes, there are women I know who are/were frummer than their husbands and were unhappy, but the sensible ones end up realizing it’s better this way. Then there are the women whose husbands are frummer than they are, or just too different, and those fall into several categories: 1. the ones who are truly and rightfully unhappy and who were, in your words, “robbed”, 2. the ones who changed in the years following marriage. Although these women may feel robbed, it is they who have become incompatible with their spouses. This is a general problem in marriages and is not exclusive to chassidishe society, and 3. girls who got engaged the easy way via the path of least resistance, while being aware deep down that their fiance isn’t exactly their Mr. Right.

Those in the latter category are sad cases, but even with the crazy pressures running rampant in the chassidishe shidduch system, they cannot be absolved of their own guilt and their own undoing. It is only the women in the first category, the innocents, who can claim that they were royally screwed over.

Personally, I don’t really know many such women. The ones I do, had other issues as well that impacted their marriages…relationships are so complicated, that single factors are sometimes hard to pinpoint.

skeleton,
“A willing victim is still a victim.”
correction: a willing victim is a masochist. it’s not for us to decide what constitutes victimization for consenting adults.

Never heard of Stockholm Syndrome? Brainwashing? Cultish practices?

A masochist is not a victim. The sadist and masochist both benefit (in pleasure) from their relationship and are both in it for their own gain.

רעדן אידיש אין ענגלישע בוכשטאבן צייגט קאלטקייט צים מאמע לשון. ווי ס’גוי’אישט זיך, אזוי אידיש’ט זיך. נאכדעם איז קיין חידוש אז געבלומטע קאפלעך איז א פרעכע וויץ. די רבי האט געזאגט אז מ’שטעלט זיך ארויף אויפן עסקעלעיטאר פארט מען אוטומאטיש אראפ (אדער ארויף). השם ירחם

I discovered this forum just this week and must say I find it fascinating reading (the comments as much as the articles/essays). I have my own individual non-traditional take on religion so I enjoy reading all your perspectives.

I am not from a chassidish background – although many in my extended family are Chabadniks. But I guess that doesn’t really count. Reading the comments here, I realize how modern they really are (and I always thought they were so feudal!) They are all on Facebook, the women wear such realistic wigs (some of them are dressed to kill), the boys AND girls travel abroad on their own before marriage….indeed, they suddenly seem to me like real bohemians, in contrast to the world portrayed here.

What most shocked me here is the fact the women cannot drive. I had heard of this ban before but never thought it was actually enforced! While I truly pity the man who has to spend his every free moment chauffering (pure torture), I pity his wife far more. I cannot imagine existing at that level of dependence. It’s treating a woman like a 12 year old girl. Even worse; a girl can take the train, or a bus, all complicated ventures for a woman with 5-8 kids in tow.

This ban ensures a woman can never do ANYTHING without her husband’s watchful eye. Weirdly enough, it also ensures the husband wastes all his valuable time running errands instead of learning Torah.
Weird. Even creepy.

Just wanted to add – there were several comments about chassidishe marriages being unhappy, loveless, etc.

Again, my only experience of any chassidut is Chabad. I was once shocked to discover my cousins got married after only a few quick dates, mediated by the parents. But years later, I can see that many of them have good marriages. Or at least, the couple seems close, even tender, whenever we meet up. Not everyone, but I’d say about half.

In contrast, my secular friends (Jewish and non-Jewish) were never constrained by arranged marriage or shadchanim. But their romantic life is no better. Many are divorced. Many live together unhappily. And a great many are single, soon nearing forty. There are no more romantic happy endings among them, than among my ultra-orthodox cousins.

My personal theory is that love often does grow as long as there’s a basic attraction, a mutual language, and respect. Whether the last two exist in chassidishe marriages may be a point for debate. But I don’t think the problem is the shidduch system. Having total freedom to choose has its own negative implications. Too much choice often leads to an inability to settle with one option and, as I witness about me, to a lonely life.
(sidenote: I do not support the shidduch system – I certainly never came a kilometre close to a shaddchanit. I just think it is really not the reason why some of these marriages fail).

Even worse; a girl can take the train, or a bus, all complicated ventures for a woman with 5-8 kids in tow.

This ban ensures a woman can never do ANYTHING without her husband’s watchful eye.

Shira, the above comments show that you haven’t grasped the chassidish lifestyle at all. If you’re really interested in understanding it, you should broaden your reading material and observe the lifestyle in person.

Chaim,
If you disagree with Shira’s statement can you at least explain why? Or will you send me reading and observing too?

Shtreimel, which do you know more of? Chassidishe wives who are under their husbands’ watchful eyes or chassidishe men who are under their wives’ nagging thumbs? And not counting chol hamoed, when have you last seen a chassidishe woman who takes the train with 5-8 kids in tow? And somehow still, there are always chassidishe women on trains.

Not that you wouldn’t benefit from some reading and observing…

Chaim, I understood her point as women having it hard by not being able to drive – it gives them less options and the men more control and I happen to agree. (What good reason is there to ban women from driving?)

A woman’s nagging doesn’t negate the said, neither do women on the train. It isn’t easy to just get away the way men can.

Shtreimel, you understood her point the way you wanted to understand it. But what she said was what I copied above. Women can never do ANYTHING without her husband’s watchful eye. Come on, you can’t exactly take this seriously as a feature of chassidish lifestyle.

Shtreimel, you may also rethink the word “ban” when using it for women’s driving. Although very frowned upon in most chassidic sects, there isn’t exactly a “ban” on women’s driving. My own wife drives. Yes, she’s not the norm, but we aren’t ostracized.

I’ll disagree with the word ANYTHING. Are you that literal always?

Shtreimel, if you’re chassidish, you know as well as I do that women do whatever they want under nobody’s watchful eye. If her husband is a domineering, possessive guy, then she has a problem. But this has nothing to do with his or her chassidishness. He’s an a–hole who happens to be chassidish.

Your wife or my wife notwithstanding, I know of more than one person who has been pressured by the ‘powers’ not to let their wives drive. It may be easier in BP than in Willi, and Willi may be easier than the villages of KJ, NS or Tosh but it is not always just frowned upon.

There’s a reason for that. Can you please tell me why?

If I’m Chasidish? You kidding? Do I need to prove this one?

Obviously I didn’t mean ‘anything’. It’s a figure of speech, a hyperbole.

I may be an ignoramous when it comes to chassidishe life, but the implications of women not driving are pretty obvious. You seem to think the rampancy of nagging women prove women have some control. Well, they’re forced to nag. Nagging is a demeaning way of begging someone to do something. It ‘looks’ aggressive but hides a lack of power.

I stand by my initial statement. Encouraging (if not outright banning) women from driving keeps them heavily dependent. There is no greater freedom than just going off and doing your own thing sometimes, without telling anyone where exactly you went. It seems this is pretty impossible for these women to do.

“It seems this is pretty impossible for these women to do.”

I wouldn’t say “impossible”, but I agree overall. Perhaps in Boro Park and W’burg less so, but in places like Monsey, KJ, NS, etc. where you need a set of wheels to do pretty much anything, the women are entirely dependent on the men except for the most basic local errands.

I will say, however, that it also depends on the woman. Some manage a degree of independence using mass transit and the like. Those who are resourceful and/or ambitious might be given to working outside the home and — under the pretext of being involved in work and career tasks — attain a degree of daily mobility away from their husbands’ prying eyes. But I do think these women are in the minority.

My two sense here:
I am as chassidish as they come, and I pushed my wife to drive, and yea, I had to “nag” her to do it, because initially she refused. Maybe some people frown upon it, but why should I care? No “powers that be” ever as much as whispered to me anything about it. Many of these taboos are imposed on them by themselves more than by anybody else. Does anyone really care that the kasho’er rov doesn’t allow women to drive?

under the pretext of being involved in work and career tasks

There is no pretext required. Most women head wherever they want, whenever they want – and no one will question their reasons.

On any given day Manhattan-bound trains are teeming with Chassidish women, heading to the destination of their choice, using the most convenient form of transportation known to the authentic New Yorker.

In these parts, NOT driving (and worrying about the traffic – and parking) is actually the more liberating option.

Tzippi, I totally agree with you! I can imagine someone who is not personally familiar with the chassidishe lifestyle reading the above comments, and coming away with a very skewed view of this aspect in a chassidishe community. The men do not control the women any more than does any secular husband control his wife. I probably know many more men that are slaves to their wives (either out of appreciation to them, or because some men have more of a submissive nature than others) than vice versa.

Kaf, your two cents are worth more.

In most Chassidish communities no one will majorly care if one decides to start driving. My only reason for not driving? First time I tried I went straight into a tree. Haven’t gone behind the wheel since.

I drive lawnmowers, and John Deere tractors. Do those count?

Kaf -

Whether men are naturally more domineering than women? I’ve heard it’s supposed to be so, although personal experience has me agreeing with you. Most women I know are the ones ‘in charge’ – and not because they nag. (Us women, we’re smarter than that. )

Just like in the great big foreign world, most women here too are puppetmasters par excellence – - and their men have no clue.

After my wife started driving, my father in law would not allow her to drive his car. He is a real male chauvinist, and he’l be the first one to admit it. Nowadays, when she is in their house he asks her to take his car to go on errands … heint luz ich nisht!

On second thought, perhaps ‘puppet master’ isn’t the right choice of words (sounds too much like ‘conniving bitch’). Perhaps the better description would be along the lines of what was said in My Big Fat Greek Wedding. Something about allowing men to be the head and think themselves in charge, while women are the neck – turning the head wherever they wanna.

Weirdest ‘scientific’ study regarding successful marriages. Apparently the longevity of a union is dependent upon the woman being smarter than the man. 27% smarter to be precise.

Hey, it’s science! Who am I to mock?

http://news.cnet.com/8301-17852_3-10463132-71.html

” Something about allowing men to be the head and think themselves in charge, while women are the neck – turning the head wherever they wanna.”
Isn’t that what they always say by hespedim of women? lol. That is just to make the women THINK that they’re controlling us, so they don’t get together and revolt…..
But in all seriousness, I think the argument that in chassidishe circles the men “control the women” or “keep a watchful eye on them” any more, or at least substantially more than in the secular world is very weak.

There should be a chat feature on this website. Anybody else like the idea?

To throw my two sense in for what it’s worth, (or isn’t), I think the original ban on female driving WAS imposed to curb women’s choices and prevent independence. However, as Tzippy pointed out, at least in the city, it absolutely doesn’t impede on a woman’s ability to come and go as she pleases.

Rebel, as for your focus on the suburbian Chasidishe viebel, consider this. When the driving ban was enforced, not sure when, but way before my times, there was no Kiryas Yoil, not much of N.S, and hardly a Chasidishe Monsey on the map.

I’m pretty sure that the rabonim involved in this decision were thinking primarily of the city populace.

Hoezen, I can add to what you just said, by pointing out that at the time the “ban” was instituted, there was a huge percentage of men that also didn’t drive or have cars, so that changes the entire landscape.

You have it all wrong in regards to woman and driving.

The apprhension chassidim have for their women to drive stems more from the consvertavie/ tradistional approach they take on all matters, than from a attempt to restrict the transportational and moving about abilities of the modern woman.

When the automobile first came onto the scene only men were drivers, even in secular society. Driving was seen as a mans lot, something too phyiscally demanding for woman. Woman were precieved to be incapable of driving, not so much physically incapable, but it was viewed as a masculine act not befitting the feminine woman. With the advant of womans suffurage and the womans liberation movements many of the social and traditional roles for woman fell by the wayside.

In antiquity the same attitude held once for woman driving was held for woman ridding on horseback(The same is true about woman participating in warfare and many other traditionally male ascribed roles). Many of thses social norms have since been oblitirated and rightfully so.

The chassidish community is traditional in nature. They are always the last to develop and realize the new social norms, hence the condescending view on women driving.

We will come around in the end, you just have to be patient, give us some time.

R and C, you are 100% right on this. You got to the heart of the issue, which I probably knew all along, but which I couldn’t pick out from among all the “back ground” noise. Thanx for bringing it out so clearly!

Anytime Kaf, that’s my mission here, to clearify things and state them with certainty. Humble me

In all honesty, I think its a precieved tznius issue in the chassidish mindset as opposed to a male chavanistic mysognynistic supression.

I have always been told that the reason women are not allowed to drive is because it’s not modest.

“It’s considered not tzniusdik [modest] for a woman to be a driver, not in keeping with the out-of-public-view [attitude],” village spokesman Rabbi Mayer Schiller said. “If you can imagine in Europe, would a woman have been a coach driver, a wagon driver? It would’ve been completely inappropriate.”

http://www.forward.com/articles/2065/

One can argue that it’s not the true reason, and they said that because it would sound better to the press than “we want to control the women. But I think it’s a mixture of both. They didn’t want women to be outside of their houses a lot because it’s not modest (kol kevoda bas melech penima). and as a result women are not ‘totally’ in control of their lives.

R&C, you hit the nail on the head.

As a shiksa myself, I’m offended that you don’t consider the skiksas (shiksim?) to be as appealing as a heimisher vaibel. Sigh. Is it the American Apparel ads? Should we wear skimpier clothing?