Vil’amsburg Diaries: Late to Work

Ha! Loved this piece!

Great job incorporating the voices of various vocal Unpious commenters.

As someone who grew up in Williamsburg in the 50s (but in the non-chasidishe orthodox side) I love this portrait of the tensions about religiosity and the demands of ordinary life without enough income.

Thank you Heshy Tam. Thank you Unpious. You are one of the great new sites on the web.

Hey, I’m very insulted that I wasn’t mentioned

Excellent work. I felt totally immersed in this guy’s life as I read it.

Hoezen,
Who said you weren’t?

>The Talmud says that if one sins by thinking of a woman, she must’ve thought of him first. It’s all her fault.

whadahell?

I’m not that well versed. You should ask the talmidie chachomim here.

Good piece. Although Tzippi is a bissel offended at being called a bissel modneh.
So long as it doesn’t happen irl she’ll survive though. I think.

Dunno if it’s the alcohol in my system or the late hour, but oddly I recognized the Laura reference way before I realized that the Tzippi character was supposed to be me. It was only when she said that she’s totally content with her life – that I realized that we sure have lots in common.

I’m not under the alcofluence of incohol as some thinkle peep… just toooo sired.

T’was a long fun day.

I love these vignettes of “the life”. I sometmes read them over and over and wish they were longer. Regardless of where any of stand the the “velt” we all suffer from the same dilemma- and that is no longer believing but choosing to remain living in their world.

Aha. Cha Leyeh…

I was thinking Insider.

Sorry to rain on the parade, but it struck me as a little more Fiddler-on-the-Roof than actual slice-of-contemporary-chassidishe life. Admittedly, that’s not quite the oyxymoron people might think)

‘Wasting seed’…bar mitzvah lessons…overdue tuition…fantasizing about teenage girls…Cha-Laya (wtf? Chaya-Laya, maybe?)… it’s like a medley of other people’s ideas of chassidishe cliches; this must all seem highly realistic—to people who admired A Stranger Among Us or The Chosen.

Cha-Laya LOL, a perfect transliteration of our pronunciation. I hear this specific one a few times daily…

Overdue tuition is what many in da-ghetto do think about every day, a few times a day, no?

Bar mitzvah lessons Where? They don’t feature at all.

Fantasizing about teenage girls… specifically a teenage girl that has teenage daughters of her own ??? How do you figure?

Perhaps you formed your own suspecting opinion on this by reading the title before you read the content and project it that way?

I think this is an accurate insiders portrayal of a certain breed of chosid.

No script writer ever sees it this way at all.

Heshey, you got this signature of yours, “always”. He screwed up, he always does. She sulked, she always sulks. Low prices, always low prices. Gets a little annoying.

Ha ha, I would kill to have that kind of sense of humor.

I don’t know how your name slipped through the censor.

You finally caught on. That’s the way I write. I always do.

Pen, thanks for sticking up for me.

tnx hoizy.
heshy, since you wear a big shtreimel too, I’ll get even with you one day

Oy, Berl. Maybe it has something to do with Chaya-Laya. My neshuma is a rushinka?

I second JRS. It’s clear that this character is inspired by the classical literary works on Hasidim (Potok especially), not really by actual people of Williamsburg, NY 2010. The trapped dreamer, the love object/obsession and simmering disgruntlment seem foreign, the tone and language of the rants send confusing signals about who he is. Some of the ingredients for the creation of this personality are there, but the golem doesn’t rise to life — not for me anyhow. I think the concept of a small minded middle aged chasiddish baal habus is excellent, but this needs some work in terms of working up a three dimensional chassidic personality. For starters, Yiddish is notorious for its curse words, and using them doesn’t intefer with the understanding of the piece. Why borrow the old ’shit’ from English? And really, is this obsession with Chayle not picked out of the generic novel’s plot?

Brings to mind the old quote:
“wake up, wake up. what’s with you, Berl!” -Breindi

Miri and Shpitz, it’s Hershy, not Berel. At least get my name right. Oy.

Sorry I’m late. You have no idea.. it’s so much time till I get the third shmuntz of my tichel tucked in the back of my shpitzel neat and tight y’know, the way I like it, and the pin stuck in on the knip like this– so it’s not visible but also doesn’t tear the scarf. It’s very delicut.

Oy!

At least I got my own name right. It’s a big family we have.

Hershy,

I love your updates, Bist mamish muley Taam.

for those claiming cliché, there is a reason why these points have become classical with identifying one as a chasidishe baal habus. That is because they are so true! and it really is what we struggle with every day.

I disagree with those who think this character is somehow an archetype. Shpitz — there’s NOTHING in Hershy Tam that compares to Danny Saunders or Asher Lev.

I don’t believe Hershy Tam is one-dimensional at all. And if you think a secret obsession with the woman next door is a borrowed motif, well then, we’ll have to say it’s a motif every American teenager in real life seems to borrow as well. I suppose every bar fight over a woman can be a mere re-enactment of the fight over Helen of Troy. Who knew America’s drunks were so literary?

And JRS — the fact that you don’t get the “Cha-Layeh” reference might indicate you miss the authenticity when it stares you in the face. And all the other examples you cited, as Pen pointed out, are non-existent. I’d say the reader should first learn to read before criticizing the writer.

Oh, and as for the Yiddish curses, it can be argued that for authenticity’s sake we should do the whole piece in Yiddish. Well, for a host of mysterious reasons, we chose not to. So “shit” just comes along with that choice, I suppose.

Besides, for some reason Hershy often chooses to say “shit” instead of using a Yiddish equivalent. He chooses sometimes not to be an archetype.

Very funny, Hershy. For the record, I must correct a misconception. I never claimed women have it better; I said women have it *easier* in a lot of ways. Easier does not necessarily imply better, certainly not in the ideological sense. (In fact, feminists can–and do–make a claim to the contrary. According to feminist theory, women are discriminated against in traditional Judaism in part because they have less obligations.) However, now that I see how you (and presumably, others) read my words, I’m finally understanding why everyone was quack-quacking against my initial hypothesis. Heaven forbid anyone theorizes that women have it better under chassidism. Why, that would literally kill the best, the most idealistic, argument against chassidism. You mean chassidus might not be misogynistic? No way. Covering my ears. Can’t hear something as heretical as that. Quack.

Hershy: “The Talmud says that if one sins by thinking of a woman, she must’ve thought of him first.”

Please tell me you made this up, Hershy. Hilarious if you did. Love it.

Laura — did you mean “fewer” obligations?

Omg, Rebel. See what happens when I don’t reread before submitting? (Someone accused me of that, I recall.)

Anyhow, just to be a really bad sport about this, may I tell you that *desperate* was misspelled in one of the news roundups?

Laura,
It says somewhere. I’m sure of it. Do we have no talmidie chachomim that can quote chapter and page?

Well, we hold ourselves to a higher standard than we do our commentors, and that is actually a notable error. Thanks for pointing it out. Berl Blackman will be severely disciplined for it.

Hershy, it’s hilarious if that’s in the Talmud, but it’s *freaking* hilarious if you made it up. I’m rooting for the latter.

HR, considering that commenters have turned me into the grammar queen of mean, I’m fine with being held to Berl Blackman’s standards. Don’t be too tough on the old boy, though. His roundups are the best.

Perhaps this character exists in chasidic society, inasmuch as he’s absolutely a stranger to me. I’ve considered that even an insider may not know as much of the inside as this man‘s diaries, especially across the gender line. To me, it seems like a fanciful literary endeavor that does no justice to *my* experiences. I want heimish. Sue me, this is not heimish.

It says somewhere. I’m sure of it. Do we have no talmidie chachomim that can quote chapter and page?

No such a Talmud Hershy if you are serious. Chaya-Laya may have never thought of you after all.

Shpitzle

For starters, Yiddish is notorious for its curse words, and using them doesn’t intefer with the understanding of the piece.

‘Heimish’ Yiddish actually has precious few curse words. Most of the ones in common use, like meshiganer and beheimah, are borrowed from Hebrew. When was the last time you heard the chassidishe guy next door call someone else a putz or a schmuck? Even the Yiddish equivalent of “shit”, “drek”, is not used in a oh-shit-I’m-late manner so much as in it’s daily usage it is synonymous with “crap”, used as an adjective or metaphor.

A Chasidishe Yid like Hershy Tam, should’ve been going to the Mikva in the morning not in shower.

Skeleton,
I can think of plenty (ba)haimish Yiddishe curse words.

Die tzedrieter, tipish, ferd, kie, farikter, chalemok, di farsholtene brie, shoite iener,
Ah, now that was cathartic!

HT

You left out a really juicy one, used by the really real Frimmers to describe the lowest of the low; “Menivvel”.

Opps.

I clearly missed the thread on this one

BTW, Shoite isn’t Yiddish. Neither is Tipish.

“JRS….all the other examples you cited, as Pen pointed out, are non-existent. I’d say the reader should first learn to read before criticizing the writer.”

HR, the tone of your comment, is a bit juvenile (disappointingly so)—for its hostile tone, and its defensiveness. More importantly, what you said is wrong—those points did occur in the story. I read the article, and re-read it. I did make a simple error in my comments: the reference in the story was to an upcoming bar-mitzvah–not bar-mitzvah lessons. The difference is minor; either way, it’s right up there with “Hurry, girls it’s almost Shabbos!” as boilerplate in orthodox-Jew stories.

And while a chasid might have a random thought about the neighbor (he mentioned her teenage daughter, but yes, the alleged ‘thoughts’ were about the mother), the thought would not be ‘expressed’–even internally—so crudely as “I shouldn’t think of her daughter in the shower, don’t want to waste seed….shit. Too late.” Whatever the shortcomings of the chassidishe take on women & sex, lack of sophistication does not jive with such casual coarseness about women—that’s more the province of the enlightened outside world. Do chassidishe guys walk behind women on 13th or Bedford Avenues saying “Hey, baby, c’mere, I’d like to….”?
I didn’t think so. Maybe for subversives of an eclectic mindset writing ironic, witty vignettes about chassidishe life—but in the mind of the regular Yoily-next-door (or even an untypical Yoily) such thoughts come across as affected and unreal.

As for the name Cha-Laya, on reflection, yeah, I guess it’s a cute transliteration of common pronunciation.

JRS, I actually think the vignette *was* a quite accurate depiction of a certain type of chussid; however, I applaud your perceptiveness in differentiating between the fiddler/chosen/a stranger genre and bonafide chussidland. I believe your revulsion at the shower scene is simply a reflection of your own refinement. In truth, many chassidim have more than “random thoughts about the neighbor,” and sometimes (especially among 20-year-olds), it does result in some spilling. Of course, the English *spilling seed* sounds a bit off in the mind of a chussid, but since the post is in English, the reader should use her/his imagination to translate.

JRS,
You think too highly of me. Shovevim is over. I’m not proud of my sins. I try to stay away from trouble. I would never say anything to a woman that ‘past nisht’ especially not “Hey, baby, c’mere, I’d like to…”. I’m not like that. No one is.

I did make a simple error. JRS I counted three errors. The daughter, Cha Leah and the bar mitzvah .

Seriously though, Hershey is a very typical warehouse manager Willi type who has settled down somewhat.

A few years back he would hang out in the shul back-room with his buddies who are still there in a younger form, to the anguish and disdain of his father and the rest of the shul.

The language and utterances one can hear there are completely indistigushable

…from those that one hears issued by those “enlightened” in the “outside world”.

Frummer, I thought of the term menivel but figured it probably comes from the Hebrew word nevaile. I might be wrong of course.

JRS,
“Do chassidishe guys walk behind women on 13th or Bedford Avenues saying “Hey, baby, c’mere, I’d like to….”?
Must have been a long time since you’ve walked down Bedford Avenue yourself. There is that “chasidishe bum” prototype that absolutely does.
The problem with Heshy’s story is not that this type of chosid doesn’t exist. The problem with his portrayal of the chosid is that there are inconsistencies in this particular guy’s mindset and behavior. Then again, as someone pointed out, Heshy would be a generic stereotype if his profile did fit into a neat structured compartment.

HT and Skeleton, you both failed to mention the newly developed and avantgarde hiemishe yiddishe curse phrase of “Vehr de fuck miynste die bist?”

RandC,
al tiphtach pe lesoten. her oif tzi shelten, die imfarshemte ox.

Hoezen T: “There is that “chasidishe bum” prototype that absolutely does [make crude comments toward women]“.

Oh, I know the type—I just think their crude thoughts are expressed more realistically in chassidinglish-wannabe-a-playa talk—”Eh… you like the rap music? You’re ah very sexy girl…”—-rather than “Oh, shit, I’m spilling seed.”
Not to beat the thing to death (no pun intended.

Hoezen,

Die tzedrieter, tipish, ferd, kie, farikter, chalemok, di farsholtene brie, shoite iener,

Nearly half of these are Hebrew words. Also, they are appellations used on people, not words you mutter to yourself when Murphy’s Law enforcement knocks on your door.

Frummer,

You left out a really juicy one, used by the really real Frimmers to describe the lowest of the low; “Menivvel”.

Hebrew. It’s Yiddish equivalent, “oifvurf”, is in pretty common use as well.

“Oy, vey!” is as close as Yiddish gets to an outpouring of woe and anger. Where’s the shit when you need it?

Probably hitting the fan somewhere.

HT, nah it just doesn’t work. Yiddish pales in comparison to English concerning abrasive language. We are just not as good as them at cussing. Were too “eiydel”

JRS,
How would you translate ‘hotzoas zera’?

Skeleton.

Yiddish is not, and was never intended to be, a pure language. It is infused with Hebrew words. There are many words in Yiddish that have no Yiddish counterpart; they’re only used in their Hebrew form. That doesn’t make it un-Yiddish. If these words are used by Yiddish speakers than its Yiddish. Language is a living form of communication. Whatever is used in the jargon is the language.

JRS,
How would you translate ‘hotzoas zera’?

just as he did: “spilling seed.” (actually, ‘bringing forth’, but whatever).
but while understanding what several others pointed out, that for practical purposes, some phrases are rendered in english…
A. in some cases it simply fails–totally–in the translation: ‘spilling seed’ sounds about as likely as “Hey, baby, let’s commit the act of sexual intercourse!
and,
B. The notion that someone would think “Oops, better not think of that lady—don’t want to be ‘motzi zera!'” is hardly any better—it’s just not real.
A chassidishe bum even less than a young yeshiva punk; the latter might think that line smirkingly; the conflicted chassid would think ‘come’ or some other idiom picked up from the dirty magazine furtively riffled through in obscure newstands, or the Talking about Sex with your Teenager book sweatily flipped through while lurking in the history aisle at the library .

I’m not a bum. I try hard to be erlich, you know.

JRS, your search for the best transliteration of “hoiytzuas z’l” is futile. Borat coined the phrase and it still depicts the act in the most precise way- its either “romance explosion” or “sexy time”. End of discussion, nothing can be said after this. It’s the seal on the debate.

Hey, does anyone wanna do “Tashmish Hamiteh”?

Skeleton,

Curses aren’t necessarily words, they’re expressions, and aren’t limited to four digits, an exclamation mark, a finger and repetition. “Oy” or “Ach!!” may not hold up a candle to the colorful dictionary of epithets in Yiddish or English we have here, but I’d argue it’s more integrated into Yiddish than the cussing that sprinkles the English sentences like punctuation.

I don’t know the Hershy character, and said before that I have a hard time seeing him reflect the chassidic socialization (I actually think he’s too 3-dimensional) but I considered that he may exist somewhere far-far across the gender divide, where I cannot see him. I’m sure picking up English curse words happens – it’s actually the first that’s adopted from foreign languages. But I hardly hear it.

The challenge of translating terms from Hebrew to English is in not letting it get Christian. Spilling seed has a different personality; biblical, not toiradig. Maybe these words are best not used in literal translation altogether.

Hershy Tam : “I’m not a bum. I try hard to be erlich, you know.”

didn’t mean to imply you were! I just used the term someone else used earlier. Besides, I take this stuff as fiction w/a personal twist.

I’ve met Hershey and he’s us. Some of us. Elements of him.

Really, fragments of Hershey are scattered all over my shull and the shull next to it.

“Besides, I take this stuff as fiction w/a personal twist.”

Oh, JRS, don’t worry about Hershy. He can handle it.

Yoelish, I agree. I know a Hershy or two myself.

“I’ve met Hershey and he’s us. Some of us”

Yoelish, this is a very important distinction. Hershy is not one of us, aka the unpious, and I’m sure he’d take offense if you suggested he is like any of those that are on the fringe. Of course, he’d take even more offense if you’d say he is a little bit of neurotic caricature with some Woody Allen and some Tevya lingeage. So I’ll give the poor good fella a break.

JRS — You’re right, my comment was unnecessarily hostile. I take back the tone — although my point still stands. The argument brought up the ad nauseum attacks on some of my own writings a number of years back, arguments that I believe carried little merit. And it gets tiresome, especially when it seems to come from people who profess to know the Chasidic world but clearly lack knowledge of its nuances. (Or they might know some nuances, and think that’s all there is to it.)

“Whatever the shortcomings of the chassidishe take on women & sex, lack of sophistication does not jive with such casual coarseness about women—that’s more the province of the enlightened outside world.”

I’m afraid this shows a one-dimensional view of Chasidim on your part. While I’m sure you know a lot about the Chasidish world, you seem unaware of the variety of types — even within the stereotypical mold. The problem with making stereotypical judgements about Chasidim is that there are significant differences between enclaves. The BP mentality is different from that of Willi, and the latter is different from Monsey, which is in turn different from New Square and KJ, and so on. What constitutes a “bum” in one place, may not necessarily be true in another. And while an average New Square or KJ yingerman might not watch movies regularly, a BP Chasid who does might still be considered “average”. A Williamsburg dude has easy access to bars, clubs, and other aspects of city life (’nuff said), while an upstate dude — even a decadent one — might only be vaguely familiar with such.

As for “casual coarseness about women,” there’s no other other way to say this, except that you are quite fundamentally wrong. While it might be true about the Chasidim you know and their specific subset, it is not true as a generalization. Many, many, many Chasidim today have significant exposure to the outside world thru movies, TV, and the radio, and it seeps into their everyday language and behavior to varying degrees. And this doesn’t refer necessarily to “bums”.

“I just think their crude thoughts are expressed more realistically in chassidinglish-wannabe-a-playa talk—”Eh… you like the rap music? You’re ah very sexy girl…””

Cute. Setting aside the fact that this idea of “realism” is precisely the kind of “trading in stereotypes” that some seem to be criticizing, this is only a very specific Yoely. He probably just turned nineteen. But the nineteen-year-old Yoely will turn twenty-five one day, and he’ll have learned how to pick up girls like the best of ‘em. I still hang with such Yoelys on occasion. I remember what they were like then, and I can’t help a degree of grudging admiration for how they’ve polished their act.

More to the point, the whole “Baby, c’mere…” line was digressing from the Hershy Tam character. Hershy Tam wouldn’t do that. But he would say “shit” to Niko or a good friend, he watches an occasional movie, and while you’re right, he won’t whistle at a hot woman passing, he’ll keep her image in his mind for a more opportune occasion…

Actually, Hershy sounds too much like the very typical Williamsburg yingerman. Not quite the brightest, not the greatest loser either, and certainly not the biggest bum out there.

Pretty average I’d say, but then – my own Chassidish-ness has been called into question too many times for my opinion to matter.

Or maybe these last few clarifications regarding the diverse lifestyles even amongst Chassidim – when in different Chassidic communities – perhaps this has put me back in the running as a possible Satmar grad / Willi resident?

“Hershy is not one of us, aka the unpious…”

Shpitz, I see him as, what they would call, פויער’יש or פארגרעבט, and naïve (hence his last name). He feels bad about each of his transgressions. But “elements” of his behavier, mindset notwithstanding, are Unpiousish.

Yoelish – I know many a Hershy who wouldn’t bother with the likes of those on Unpious.

They’re content (or for those like Hershy: comfortable in their discontent) with their current lives, with no interest in pushing the boundaries – let alone breaking them.

Hoezen T,

Menivel doesn’t come from the word neveila, but it’s a Hebrew word and it’s mentioned in the Talmud.

T.P.

The fact that menivel is spelled with a ‘vav’ and nevieleh is spelled with a ‘bais’ doesn’t necessarily mean that they are not the same word. Aramaic and Hebrew are both Semitic languages and they are closely related. Some words are spelled differently, but at the root they are the same word. The examples are abundant.

R & C,

Vehr the fuk minste di bist… Just kidding. Your right, it makes sense that they’re both from the same root.

Hasidic Rebel said: < < JRS — You’re right, my comment was unnecessarily hostile. I take back the tone — although my point still stands. The argument brought up the ad nauseum attacks on some of my own writings a number of years back, arguments that I believe carried little merit. And it gets tiresome, especially when it seems to come from people who profess to know the Chasidic world but clearly lack knowledge of its nuances. (Or they might know some nuances, and think that’s all there is to it.) >>

Well, this might also be a fine nuance, but I wasn’t ‘attacking’ Hershy or his article, merely criticizing the story. Maybe the significant difference is the lack of—hostility.

< < I’m afraid this shows a one-dimensional view of Chasidim on your part. While I’m sure you know a lot about the Chasidish world, you seem unaware of the variety of types — even within the stereotypical mold. >>

You’re quite wrong. I’ve much more of a stake in this world than you seem to realize—that’s OK, how could you know? I choose not to elaborate; I’ve no need to ‘establish my cred’, and besides, it’s not something I aspire to–but for all it’s distinctiveness, being chassidishe is not a club to which you either totally belong or or not. There are shades of grey. But my making a statement with which you disagree is hardly grounds for your overconfident assertions about whether someone knows, or is part of, “the Life.” I’m not, actually. And yet, in some ways, I am, or was, or can be. Doesn’t matter.

Still, I’ll grant you, I don’t presume to know all the nuances of all the types, I certainly don’t carry around comprehensive mental spreadsheets of rebbishe genealogies or varying minhagim or l’vush—it’s far too diverse, as I’m sure you agree, and I’ve never been motivated, never been fascinated by those particulars. But knowing, and understanding many of the types? The bums, the schvitzers; the happily contradictory guys who name-drop celebrities but learn a little, daven well, toivel often, and get along with everyone… the ones who skate up to the edge, engaging goyim, college-bound ‘modern’ relatives and others with benign interest; the ones who think goyish music, aftershave and striped polo-shirts are the cutting edge of American culture and the quietly tormented ones looking at the outside world with yearning that’s unlikely to be fulfilled; the girls with intellect, opinions and a passion for wider knowledge who focus it all into the narrow chasms of what’s available to them; and the female kanoi-warriors, fiercely protective of their permanently threatened lifestyle, ostentatious in their un-glamor, judging those who would be different (lipstick? eye-shadow?) with a baleful eye, hunching through the streets with a grimly determined march against the outside world…. and the ones who have a bit of a taste for what’s out there, but whose imagination goes no further than designer labels, channeling their own desire for More into designer clothing and heavy draperies… and the she’aino-yodea-lishol types, who simply think the whole outside world is nuts, and disgusting besides, and feel no more curiousity about it than the average NY apartment-dweller does about the boiler room in the bowels of the building… I can spot most of ‘em a block away.

HR, you, actually, seem to carry your own mental stereotype of People Who Hold Semi-informed Views of Chassidim, and once my comments triggered that, you were off in that direction, decrying “making stereotypical judgements” and so on. Well, I guess we all have pre-packaged images of others, and tend to snap people into them. But I’m well aware of the different types of chassidim, and appreciate your examples of what some might be inclined to do while others would not. I nevertheless felt that some aspects of the story didn’t strike me as real or natural. One can always argue against any such observations: no character is ever NOT real, because somewhere in NYC there’s someone who walks, dresses or acts in any given way. But that doesn’t necessarily make it more believable.