Sholom Bayis
Fruma Biegeleisen2010Love & Sex[First Person]
The Chanukah candles burn and sputter in the darkness, casting a warm glow around the room. They are so beautiful, slowly melting, slowly making rainbow puddles of wax. Right now, I am tied to the coffee table in the living room and so I have a pretty good view of the candles. My wrists and ankles are bound to the table legs with some sort of rope. If I really wanted to, I could probably wriggle my way out, maybe tip over the whole table in the process.
I remember a different coffee table, a different living room. It was a long time ago, and I was sitting at a class for newly married ladies. I wasn’t married yet, just engaged. But already I was important. I was part of the in-crowd, the group that was invited to hear about special topics, unique subjects that were forbidden to everyone else, even my still-looking seminary roommates. The topic was sholom bayis and the material presented was only appropriate for kallahs or married women—that’s what the flyer said. The gathering was in someone’s living room and it was filled to capacity. I was lucky to have a chair; some girls had to stand or sit on the floor.
A plump, cheery lady was in charge of the speech and she was almost yelling at us, her rapt, awed audience. She told us many secret grown-up things, most of which I have forgotten during the course of my secret grown-up life. One thing, though, I remember even now. We must be flexible in pleasing our husbands, she said. We should try to move beyond what we are comfortable with. Sometimes men will ask for things that we find strange or unpleasant and we should try to go along as best we can. Or sometimes they will ask at the wrong time, like when her husband asked for intimacy after a close friend had a tragedy. She raised her voice and lowered it; there was a sing-song quality to the way she spoke. I remember being mortified and fascinated at the same time. Why was she telling us about her personal sex life? Will she tell us more? What else did her husband ask for? What could our husbands ask for that is strange or unpleasant? We should try to acquiesce, she went on, because sholom bayis means understanding how hard it is to be a man. Never do anything against halacha, of course, chas v’sholom. But a good wife will try to please her husband and accommodate him, even if the requests seem odd or unusual.
I thought this was important. Surely, she shared something personal with us about her own relationship only because this point was so critical. Note to self: please your husband even if it takes you past your comfort zone. That is the key to sholom bayis.
It is ten years later. Sad to say, sholom bayis still eludes me. Even though I have done my best, I think, to be accommodating.
He stands over me, panting in my ear. You want this bitch, sluts like you like it this way. Am I supposed to smile? Will that make him happy? I smile. I turn my eyes away from him. I look at the candles, there are so many of them and all different colors too. He likes each of our sons to light his own menorah.
He’s pushing something into me, some sort of object, maybe a bottle or a cucumber. It feels more like a cucumber. It would be funny if it didn’t hurt so much. Rape by produce. I try to close my legs tighter but it just hurts more. I have to learn to relax and not fight it.
The curtains are open and a car drives by. His breath is hot on my face and his thrusts are now more rushed and forceful. You want this, bitch. You want people to see you, you like that. Do I? It hurts so much, I take in a sharp breath.
What if I say no? Will he be hurt? Upset? Disappointed? Will he look at those sites again and send emails to those girls? Is this against halacha? Is this what the sholom bayis lady meant? Did her husband ask for this too? Probably, he did. Because it’s hard to be a man. God, I hope the toddler doesn’t wake up and come downstairs. I don’t know how I would explain this.
He tries to kiss me. I turn away and look at the sputtering flames. I close my eyes. I know he is close to finishing. Yesterday he got upset because I accidentally said “shel Chanukah” when our nusach is to leave out the “shel” part. Why did I say it? Was it an accident or did I do it on purpose, because it fits the tune I know and because I didn’t care if it would irritate him? He yelled at me, saying I was trying to turn his children into maskilim by disrespecting his nusach. Where do you want me to come, slut? I can come on your face, or here, or here. He jams his fingers in me and twists my nipple.
He is a good man, a kind person. A good father, most of the time. He probably just doesn’t notice the tears because my eyes are still closed. I open them and blink and the tears cascade down my face. The candles are still there. Melting slowly, dying quietly, one drop at a time.
Looking back, the sholom bayis lady forgot to teach us how to say no. Some of us are slow learners and we have to figure these things out on our own. It can take ten years, maybe more.
Tomorrow we will light the candles again. And tomorrow I will say “shel Chanukah” when I sing the bracha with my children. Because that’s the way sluts like me want it said.
117 Responses
The site counted 119 responses; 117 survive in the archived copies.
it is really depressing to read the pain and sufferring you are going thru. but im sorry to inform you that in my opinion you are directing your anger in the wrong place. i think this behaviour has more to do, with sick person syndrome then religion. the only part i can see were frumkeit plays a role in this is, that you are forced to marry the maniac, your parents decided is best for their immage. and making sure you have enough children born, before you have a chance to realize that, you have a self centered shmuck for a husband, and by then your stuck. if i would have to guess this aggresive guy is probally the biggest scary cat, sissy, in town. and if you start showing him that, you wont under any circumstance, take his abuse. and you expect to be treated like a lady that he will fold like a cheap camera. be strong!!!!!
This comment is well liked. Like it too?
As depressing as this post is, I find this line most upsetting;
“What if I say no? Will he be hurt? Upset? Disappointed? Will he look at those sites again and send emails to those girls?”
Nothing you have done, and nothing you will do, will change this man. He is responsible for his actions and choices. Not you.
This comment is well liked. Like it too?
Somethin’s fishy here, The protagonist is being portrayed as a slave in Darfur with no voice of her own. I don’t buy it. See, Nowadays, normal healthy people have dialogue, express their likes and dislikes to each other. Besides, The cheated being afraid of the cheater?? the offended the one suffering instead of protesting sounds retarded. In normal circumstances any normal husband caught cheating or sending suspicious emails would run for his life . Are you a klutz?? come on!
Crap, sell it to the marines.
People, remember, it’s fiction!
Shlomo, how can you be so sure?
I didn’t mean that in the sense of don’t believe it’s possible I meant in the sense of we, as readers, need to remember that even the most truthful of stories on this site are written as fiction. (Will one of the top dogs here correct me if I’m wrong?)
A well written story gets a message across whether the story is real or ken zein emes. This story definitely got a message across but that does not mean I accept the story as fact.
As we were told about chasidishe maases: m’darf nisht gleiben oz z’iz emes, m’darf gleiben oz z’ken zein emes…
if only this was really fictional. i believe this happens in many relationships …. be they frum, ortho or northo, muslim catholic or mormon …. sorry its a human thing not a religius thing.
if this is really happening to you I am sorry no human should be touched or treated in anyway they dont want no matter what the kallah teachers in villy tell you
” we, as readers, need to remember that even the most truthful of stories on this site are written as fiction. (Will one of the top dogs here correct me if I’m wrong?)”
Hu? Says who?
Gott in Himmel, I hope this was fiction, or it would be too hard to stomach. The ending sentence was a bit of twisted mastery. Nicely done!
Heartbreaking, men
Tears should only flow from extreme pleasure.
This was not fiction. I just wrote up what happened one time.
From some of the comments, though, you’d think that no one here ever knew any frum women who have trouble communicating about intimate issues or frum men who are a little hypocritical and clueless about what women want.
Like I said, he is a good guy mostly, maybe just a bit eccentric with his tastes and I was taught to go along with stuff and that is what I did for a long, long time. It is partially my fault for not speaking up, not making it clear what I think. On the other hand, from what I heard, people who are not happy at home, go elsewhere. So it is like a catch 22 sometimes. Nobody wants their spouse to be bored and considering exploring greener pastures. I guess it’s complicated.
This comment is well liked. Like it too?
Hard for me to believe that a man who is a stickler for tradition to the point of being anal retentive (cant decide whether the pun is intended or not) about “shel” would use language like “slut” and treat another human being in the fashion described. He is either a phony about his beliefs or a complete psychopath….In either case, run for your life!
The question which this article begs to ask is whether the kallah teachers really are at fault for such a sad situation.
One the one hand, you have the writer’s view which seems to be that kallah teachers should be promoting a healthier attitude towards sex, which is that sex should be an intimate way for the couple to bond and be pleasurable for both of them, physically and emotionally, and NOT about the wife “servicing” the husband.
On the other hand, we have the Dr. Laura’s of the world exhorting women all over to “keep their husbands happy” if they don’t want them to stray.
My feeling is, that if any fault can be found with the kallah teachers, it would not be in what this articles implies it to be, that they teach the “oisah retson balah” doctrine. That is just common sense, up to a certain extent. The fault lies in the fact that they do not stress the other side of the issue, that “marital intimacy” has goals other than keeping the husband satisfied, that the mitsvah of “onah” is to spend “quality time” with one’s wife (onah translates to “time”, right?) and that it is supposed to be a positive experience for BOTH of them, bringing them closer to each other blah blah blah.
RandC,
Hard for me to believe that a man who is a stickler for tradition to the point of being anal retentive (cant decide whether the pun is intended or not).
I’m not trying to make light of this matter, but for some odd reason your comment reminded me of this song I recently heard.
“Sheloi sheloi, kedarkoi,
Zokt a yede yid azoi,…
Know which song I’m talkin about?
The author commented above (as FB), so this may be unnecessary. But just to reiterate, she’s asked me to restate that this story is not fictional at all. Some stories on this site are fiction, but some are true tales. For the future, we’re planning to be more clear about what’s fiction and what isn’t. This one isn’t.
HT
Of course I know, Im not a ripped hunk from the South Bronx.
Correction*
I’m a ripped hunk but not from the South Bronx
What is far fetched to one person may be just another day of the same to another. Just because something hasn’t happened in your life or you haven’t heard it discussed by those close to you does not mean that it doesn’t happen.
There are lifestyle groups that are into bondage and such which may be a good resource in helping someone in this situation find their voice.
What is horrifying about this story is not the kallah-teacher’s advice to try and please your spouse even beyond your comfort zone (which is good advice for *both* partners in any long-term relationship) and not even the degrading sex-play (which some people enjoy after all), but the sickening attitude taught to young girls about the terrible and earth-shattering consequences of saying “no” to a man.
This messed-up attitude is rather common among kallah teachers and is extremely degrading towards the men these unfortunate girls get to marry. More importantly, it is positively criminal towards these unfortunate young girls themselves. Some will end up like the protagonist in this story, afraid of communicating their sexual likes and dislikes to such an extent that they cannot even protest when they’re physically hurt — raped, even.
Yes, people should try and make their partners happy. But sex-play — especially rough sex-play — needs to be negotiated, and there can be no negotiation without communication. Their needs to be an understanding beforehand about exactly what vegetable can go where and who exactly gets to be the bitch and who the slut. But if someone was so emotionally castrated by an irrational and instilled fear of god and men that they cannot bring themselves to say no to *anything* then they *will* end up raped (especially if they end up with a stupid fuckwad for a husband), and yes, the kallah teachers are most certainly culpable in that.
This comment is well liked. Like it too?
By the way, this piece is beautifully written. Both very funny and very painful to read, as it should be.
Since the story isn’t fiction (and to follow up somewhat on the spirit of Aviva’s comment) I would ask FB to consider that it need not be an all-or-nothing choice, of either completely stifling her own sexual preferences (and protests against pain) or rejecting her husband’s sexual preferences.
With a little discussion, it may well be possible to identify ways (behaviors, methods, materials, etc.) of enabling him to get his erotic theater experience of dominating you, while you are protected from that which is physically painful. And, of course, part of the negotiation could be to arrange for other sexual activities, too, that are not only not painful to you, but are more to your taste and pleasure. (If necessary, find an open-minded, maybe non-religious, couples therapist, perhaps a sex therapist, who can help the two of you talk constructively about such matters.) Mutual generosity and cooperation are, of course, so much better than fear, distance, resentment, or denying the self.
But I don’t know your situation, so my advice may be worth no more than it cost you.
I wish you the best.
I was already writing my previous comment before Baal Devarim’s comments were visible to me. Now that I see them, I want to agree with him on negotiation and communication. I also want to add, as he did, that the story was well-written and emotionally evocative.
Kaf you made sense! (After incessant immature comments, I’m quite surprised. But in a good way. Maybe there’s still hope for you.
)
You’re right on target. Indeed I don’t see this piece as a problem caused by young innocent usually-teenaged kids being told to please their spouse. It’s a sensible and important message that ought to be taught to every girl and guy stepping into marriage. Marriage is about mutual satisfaction. But your focus isn’t on what you get – but what you give. There is still plenty of immaturity and selfishness at that age. Going into marriage with guidance and advice isn’t a bad thing.
I do though wish that more kallah and chosson teachers focus on the intimacy and pleasure inherent in marital sex. (It would help those too naïve to figure that out for themselves.)
But about this piece, it still feels like a fantastical narrative. A brilliant work of fiction, but a work of fiction nonetheless. I’m saying this not because of any inconsistencies, but because if this were a true story then she wouldn’t be aware enough to share it and know it isn’t supposed to be so. If she recognizes the inherent sensationalism then she’s aware too that she ought to stop him. The fact that she wrote it and knew to include the self-blame and all the other enticing / horrifying details is ample proof that this is a great work of art.
It still makes her point. But it becomes a lot less of a valid point.
Fruma,
This was so painful to read. I hope the coming summer will bring blossom and tributes to your heart. It’s a new epoch dear, let the candles be washed away by an abundance of sunshine.
Tzippi, I’m flabbergasted at your presumptuousness. We are often aware of the absurdities of our own lives, but are often incapable of changing them for various reasons. (They’re the stuff of almost every memoir ever published; it doesn’t take a genius to know that one’s life is unusual in coparison to the average.) For you to cast aspersions on the author’s integrity in telling her story without knowing anything about her besides what she shared is highly inappropriate.
This comment is well liked. Like it too?
Tzippi, thank you SO much for the compliment, I LIVE for compliments! Seriously…
(But if you’re hoping for me to grow up, I wouldn’t count on it, I have tried in the past, and it hasn’t worked. Nowadays I am happy with the way things are.)
“if this were a true story then she wouldn’t be aware enough to share it and know it isn’t supposed to be so.”
Tzippi, that’s ge’onis! A real gemara kup! Now that you point it out, it seems so obvious, but I would never have realized it on my own.
edit: I don’t know if what you’re saying will hold up after you get chewed up here, but it’s ge’onis nonetheless.
Apparently I’m always inappropriate. So long as I’m consistent though. That’s something. Right?
Thing is, knowing precisely how to portray the extent of her emotional damage (self-blame) and innocence (“but she told me to”) requires enough self awareness to prevent this act from occurring. Her nuances are too exact. Her heartbreak is too perfect. And she is too aware of it happening -in her writing, for this to actually happen in real life.
“He’s a good guy. A kind person.” And she thought that the way to fix her marriage to this darling man would be a cry for help on this blog, instead of calling a therapist?
Besides, gimme a break. She no longer does everything the teachers told her to, but this one thing she can’t break free of?
But I get why you want the story on this particular site. It’s the sensationalism, the modus operandi of Unpious.
Well, it worked.
Tzippy,
“So long as I’m consistent though. That’s something. Right?”
Wrong. You are consistently shrill, self-righteous, strident, needlessly judgmental, groundlessly accusatory, irrationally voluble, disquietingly insincere, and routinely make baseless comments while attacking scary straw men.
Then again, what exactly is the “something” you had in mind?
This comment is well liked. Like it too?
Wow BD. Don’t stop now. You were on a roll!
I don’t recall ever being ripped apart like that, but like a good Jewish girl I’m gonna take it all quietly and bow my head. Let male dominance reign supreme!
(You called ‘em “stupid fuckwads”? I’m not familiar with the term. But I’d guess you’d recognize it though.)
Wow. I know Tzippi can take care of herself, but it hurts to watch someone get beaten up like that for no apparent reason. I’m sorry Tzippi.
Doesn’t he know that its prohibited to use Chanukah candles for any sort of pleasure?
That being said, nice article.
I’m fairly new to this site, and I find the content unique. There is no talk of trying to prove G-d’s existence or arguments promoting atheism. There are only experiences, shared by many of us who have had doubts – some to reconcile and others to move on.
“Let male dominance reign supreme!”
You gotta love how suddenly it’s “male dominance” when the girl is left speechless for her own inadequacies.
I wasn’t aware that being beaten means that one is inadequate. I guess I’ll have to review the proper code of behavior – and the mindset – one is supposed to embrace upon being abused.
I’m sure there’s a guidebook someplace.
Unlike the author of this piece, I don’t have to take it though. I can opt for bed. And I do.
I wrote this about 4 years after it happened. So to some extent Tzippy is right b/c I did not have much awareness at the time that this was all that unusual. It is sort of a learning process, I don’t know what else to say. I guess my description of the event could be colored more by how I see it now rather than how I saw it at the time- that is likely. I’m not sure how else to write it though, being that I am writing necessarily from my point of view in the present.
These are the same guys that humiliate and beat up women for sitting in the front of the bus. I can certainly believe that a “frum” guy who is makpid on Kulah kaHamura could be capable of this behavior. I wonder how many cases there are like this in the circles of the Kanoim.
Despite your protestations, this article is written by a man with a perverted mind.
That’s not to say that it could not happen.
FB – makes sense.
In retrospect we tend to look at things differently – the inevitability of our evolving.
My apologies if doubting you appeared unsympathetic. No one should be treated that way. I was hopeful (and somewhat reassured) – due to the tone of the writing, that indeed no one was.
Rafi:
“These are the same guys that humiliate and beat up women for sitting in the front of the bus.”
No.
Assuming it it is true, it’s one individual. Just because one does doesn’t mean they all do, or even that many of them do.
One thing I am certain of, most of frum Yidden are not exposed to this type of depravity. It’s the exception rather than the rule, but then again, we are supposed to be better than perfect, so it’s understandable when people are upset when one of us behaves badly.
Also, I feel that there is an amount of schadenfreude out there when somebody orthodox is exposed to be behaving unorthodoxly.
FB
First off, let me preface my question with a bow. The piece is masterful if it’s fictional and hair raisingly horrifying and emotionally numbing if it’s indeed factual. In any event it’s very well written.
You contend that the piece is a discription of true events, yet I am confused by the inconsistencies between your comments and the actual piece. In the narrative one gets the feeling that the way your husband treated you (or God forbid still does) wasn’t the aberration; it was the norm. Here are some of the cues that led me to believe so:
“It is ten years later. Sad to say, sholom bayis still eludes me. Even though I have done my best, I think, to be accommodating. “
“I have to learn to relax and not fight it.”,
“Some of us are slow learners and we have to figure these things out on our own. It can take ten years, maybe more”
“ He probably just doesn’t notice the tears because my eyes are still closed.”
While in your responses to the commenters it seems that you refer to it as an event; a single one time experience:
“This was not fiction. I just wrote up what happened one time “
“after it happened”
“my description of the event”
Then you revert back to relating to the fact as an ongoing theme:
“I was taught to go along with stuff and that is what I did for a long, long time.”
I’m confused. Would you care to clarify?
R and C: it’s about one event, but there’s a lot of history behind it.
Off,
Are you guesstimating? Are you the husband? The lawyer? The agent? The representative?
Gosh, I don’t know how I can explain it any better. There have been many incidents similar to this one, some of them more humiliating, some less so. I feel like the details of all that will just be even less credible to the people here b/c apparently most people have little experience with this kind of thing. This specific chanukah event was a one time thing, I was particularly struck by the incongruence of the menorahs in the room and our argument about the bracha, so I remember the contrast well.
At the time, I thought of it as a quirky, uncomfortable preference that should be and is accommodated by a good wife. This was about 10 years into my marriage.
As time went on, I gradually learned more about how this behavior and preferences were not so typical and I began questioning if I should be so accommodating. It is still a learning process. I am still worried if refusing is the right thing to do. Nobody wants to be the wife in the Samantha and the Talmud story.
It is not like my frum friends discuss these kinds of details with me so I have very limited ways of figuring out what is within the normal range and what is not. Also, psychologically speaking, I think everyone is happier to assume their spouse is normal than is some sort of freak. So that is my bias, even now. But gradually I have gotten used to the idea that I should speak up more in this area.
Like I said, it is now about 4 years after this incident. I am married 14 years. Lots of other similar things happened, before and after. A few months ago, for a number of reasons, I recently became more vocal about things and we had a very difficult conversation, basically a big fight. I don’t know if it was the right thing to do in the long run, we will have to wait and see.
This comment is well liked. Like it too?
I just think it’s horrendous that some people won’t believe the author, no matter what.
I call it trauma x2. First, you get traumatized by the incident. Then you get fucked all over again when your audience doesn’t believe you!
This comment is well liked. Like it too?
FB:
I find some of your statements most puzzling, including the one in which you state that you were not aware this was unusual behaviour. There are some contradictions too.
But anyway, my sympathies to you if it is based on truth. However a blog like this is absolutely the wrong place to try to deal with issues you claim you are experiencing.
Offthederech:
Blogs and comments are anoymous. People act differently when they can’t see a person in front of them. That’s why I said that blogs aren’t the place to sort out personal issues.
You don’t get laid on a coffee table. Assuming you are not married to a lilliputty sized saddist. In any event, great read. Keep em coming and me and my fellow hasids will continue to be intrigued.
Whatever.
However a blog like this is absolutely the wrong place to try to deal with issues you claim you are experiencing.
Frummer, you are of course well entitled to your opinion. But you would do well to drop the “know it all” vibe of binary certainty that you display and issue your opinion in a tone suited to just that.
I’m not “dealing with my issues” here, I read the rules just like everyone else. I am just answering questions from people who had questions. I don’t want your pity. I don’t know what I want. Just to tell the story I guess.
All the comments are truly amusing!
Whether fiction or not, the article delivers its point. That it can be true is evident by our lack of complete shock. Nitpicking on small inconsistencies to disprove it is encouraging discourse reserved for the Beis Medrash. If it is true please enlighten me to any evidence hinting that the author’s intent is to elicit therapeutic sympathy.
As to the issue itself..
I say;
The kalla teacher gave an important service. She took the students aside and told them the hashkafah perspective from a Torah yiddeneh. Merely pointing out not to let the teachings of tzniius and modesty interfere with potential mutually consented wild fetishes. You have to naive to argue she encouraged you to take abbuse.
This is yet another post about sex.
Something strange going on in the minds of Unpious writers/editors.
Pen:
Apologies for my opinions. I will try to have less of them in future.
OTD and FB
It’s not so much the cucumber fuck and slut barks – which can be fun and healthy in a cooperating open relationship – as the shocking silence. When reading the piece you get the vibe that Mrs. Bigeleisn doesn’t enjoy sex at all, she just lays silent and cringes while her husband is “listig laibedig”, therefore he feels like doing whatever he desires regardless, since there’s no reciprocation at all, and “that” seems to be the core of the problem. I’m not judging, I’m just expressing the feel you get when reading the story.
There are lifestyle groups that are into bondage and such which may be a good resource in helping someone in this situation find their voice.
The two chief principles in normal BDSM is that there is mutual enjoyment between the dom and the sub, and that it is all safe and agreed upon.
The author of this article seems to fit neither, and therefore would have no use of such a group. More like, she could use a group for victims of spousal abuse.
The kalla teacher gave an important service. She took the students aside and told them the hashkafah perspective from a Torah yiddeneh. Merely pointing out not to let the teachings of tzniius and modesty interfere with potential mutually consented wild fetishes. You have to naive to argue she encouraged you to take abbuse.
The reasonable advice to girls and women to go along with the requests of their spouses is only half the picture. The part that’s missing is perhaps a little bit of education into what red flags can be. Too many newlyweds find themselves in very unpleasant situations without even realizing how they got there.
Frummer
Chabad, Aish, Torah.org, these are all beautiful sites better suited for yourself I think, perhaps you will find your place there.
We all wish you good luck on your journey.
It’s not so much the cucumber fuck and slut barks – which can be fun and healthy in a cooperating open relationship – as the shocking silence. When reading the piece you get the vibe that Mrs. Bigeleisn doesn’t enjoy sex at all, she just lays silent and cringes while her husband is “listig laibedig”, therefore he feels like doing whatever he desires regardless, since there’s no reciprocation at all, and “that” seems to be the core of the problem. I’m not judging, I’m just expressing the feel you get when reading the story.
How ass-umptuous of you to ass-ume that Mrs. Bigeleisen doesn’t enjoy sex at all and is therefore in some way at fault for her husband’s perversions.
You find degrading terminology and vegetables to be a turn-on, great. But if someone doesn’t, why in thunder should they be a lively participant? Her silence and reluctance should’ve been the clearest signs to her husband that she was NOT enjoying herself with his shenanigans, yet he chose to ignore them and be a selfish prick.
Perhaps if he thought with his North pole instead of his South pole, he’d get some “reciprocation”.
skeleton
you didn’t comprehend the pepth of the point, namely, the silence in general, the fact of miscommunication, which led to my observation. Read again and think.
Frummer,
This is yet another post about sex. Something strange going on in the minds of Unpious writers/editors.
Or perhaps, its the reader.
You remind me of the psychiatric patient who accused the doctor of being a pervert for showing him a pornographic Rorschach.
Read through the posts and tell me, are ten percent of them sexually loaded?
Hoezen:
Who mentioned anything about numbers or percentages? However, now that you bring it up, the last 6 posts on Shtreimels blog, how many of them are about sex? None. Ok, I hear you say, that’s not a fair comparison. There are loads of posts on this site. Ok then, so lets pick a blog which also has many posts. How about Dovbear. Well, in all the 14 posts on his homepage none contained sex.
Now lets look at this site.
The 14 posts on this homepage contained five about sex.
Am I the doctor or am I the patient?
Yuck
Since when does the wife make a bracha on chanuka lecht???
Am i the only one who has this question?
Which five?
enough sex posts! enough!
I also have a sense of deja vu when reading this article, although I suppose the same experiences can repeat themselves amongst different people.
If this article by some chance does come from someone’s personal experience, my advice is to quit the passive aggressive behavior and fight openly. First 1-1 and if that isn’t effective, then with lawyers.
hassid.blogspot.com/2004/12/sexual-promiscuity.html
this is where it all started! my all time favorite post
[...] Read the rest here. [...]
So no one has a answer????
So no one has a answer????
Since when do women make the bracha on chanuke lecht when there is a man in the house?
Zurech,
I think she was saying the brucha with her kids.
There is something to the silence comment that cannot be ignored. Of course, it would be extremely obnoxious to lay any blame on the girl in this story. However it must be acknowledged, that her reluctance and subdued consent may as well be standard chareidi submissiveness rather than a sign of objecting to what her husband/rapist is doing to her.
I understood her reference to the Kallah teacher as implying exactly that.
She had no ‘permission’ to say no, or even be enough of a “human” to have her own sexual fulfillment. The sexual relationship between her and her husband comprised only of fulfilling her husband’s whims.
Wythe, granted the kallah teacher should have given these women a better introduction to intimacy and explained how it is supposed to be a loving and mutually satisfying experience. But I fail to see where she is to blame for this scenario.
As Fruma wrote, she was taught that We should try to move beyond what we are comfortable with… a good wife will try to please her husband and accommodate him, even if the requests seem odd or unusual.
I don’t see ‘must always’ or any ‘has to’. Nor do I see any lessons to ‘obey’. Merely try to accomodate. Fruma went beyond that.
Because her husband was a bastard who demanded it. And she didn’t know how to say no.
The kallah teacher was merely doing a service by revealing to the girls that sex can go beyond what they were previously used to. That their old conventions of tznius shouldn’t hold them back from pleasing their husbands, and discovering the amazing secrets intimacy holds. She hinted at fetishes, and suggested pleasuring their men, and considering their needs too. How is there anything wrong with that?
Zurech – my question isn’t so much on why she made a brocha on the lecht, but why were the colorful candles still burning? Where does she buy the kids’ candles that burn past the maoz tzur, past bedtime routine, all the way to when the kids are all tucked in for the night?
She says this particular episode stands out because she remembers looking at the burning candles. And yet these candles weren’t burning any longer.
Just an oddity. I’m sure I’m reading too much into it.
Tzip,
Tzip,
Don’t know if we are reading too much into it or simply point out the obvious that the story is smelly.
i found this story so disturbing & ironic that your husband is so worried about your children not following his nusach. instead, he should be more concerned about your needs & perhaps quit raping you. personally, i think that is much more important for him to be worrying about. if he loves you, he should be concerned about what is pleasurable to you & not just to him. he sounds very selfish to me & i would recommend that you try to get some help for the sexual & emotional abuse from which you seem to be suffering.
Tzippi,
The sex ed of children growing up in our community doesn’t happen in one hour of the Kallah teacher. Of course the Kallah teacher can do quite a bit to reinforce the damage. If she is smart, she can be the ‘first step’ out of the damage. Regardless, the damage is long done.
I did NOT state that it’s Fruma’s fault that she was being raped and hurt so badly. All I’m saying is, that this hurt has cultural roots in the way our girls relate to intimacy and men in general. A man growing up in our culture, can legitimately do much more than what Fruma writes, and still have no clue of how far he is hurting his partner, that he may love with all his heart.
Thus Fruma’s story is more of an indictment on our culture and upbringing than of this man in particular.
Gimme a break! No guy chances upon the ideas of BDSM and doesn’t realize that if his partner isn’t equally willing, that he is in essence raping her.
For thousands of years it has always been accepted that sex wasn’t discussed in polite company. Girls went into marriage with the token introduction to intimacy (if that much)- and figured out the rest in the throes of love. Or did not. .
Sex should always be respected for its sanctity and regarded as a private matter. Which is why the onus is on the parents to raise their children with a healthy awareness of the love and respect and pleasure that marriage provides. And calls for.
Misinformation regarding marital intimacy isn’t a problem that our community as a group must deal with. So stop blaming our society for what is most definitely NOT a community matter.
Tzippi,
How dare you say that it’s been working for thousands of years, haven’t you heard of the sexual revolution? Wasn’t the reason for that because it HASN’T been working all along? Is Whythe implying then that the frum community should embrace the sexual revolution of the 60’s?
Kaf, I’m not sure whether you are being sarcastic or not.
I wasn’t implying that people were experiencing sexual bliss for thousands of years. I have no definitive way of knowing statistically how satisfying their sex lives were.
I do know though, unequivocally, that the sexual revolution would be wildly detrimental to our way of life. And while I often rally for change, in this instance, I can see no upside.
Tzippi, that was my point, exactly.
“Sanctity of sex,” what an oxymoron.
Being that I don’t profess to be an anthropologist, I will let your comment about historic sexual behavior stand.
However, denying that women in the heimishe community are for all intents and purposes second rate citizens and taught continuously throughout their lives that they play second fiddle to the man is hilarious. Or perhaps denial.
In this context, if you add to it the fact that most bochurim get nearly all of their education from halacha sources, then the biggest chidush is that we don’t hear from many more Fruma B.’s crying. And the reason we don’t hear from many more, is not because they don’t exist.
IT IS BECAUSE THE EDUCATION SYSTEM IS WORKING AS INTENDED. Sanctity of sex included.
“However, denying that women in the heimishe community are for all intents and purposes second rate citizens and taught continuously throughout their lives that they play second fiddle to the man is hilarious. Or perhaps denial. ”
It looks like I am in denial. Whythe, where do I go for treatment?
“if you add to it the fact that most bochurim get nearly all of their education from halacha sources, then the biggest chidush is that we don’t hear from many more Fruma B.’s crying.”
Where do you get your information from? Last time I looked into my Shulchan Aruch, it said that one has to romance his wife before sex, and oh, did you ever hear of the teisha midos? Do want more?
Whythe, I’m glad your wife plays second fiddle to you (poor woman), but that is rarely the case.
As for cases like Fruma B’s being prevelant because of men learning about sex from halacha?
That explains the cucumber. And the nipple pinching. And the rope. And the table in front of the Chanuka candles.
I was wondering where he took it from. Care to point out the sefer?
תלמוד בבלי נדרים כ עמוד ב
אמר רבי יוחנן: זו דברי יוחנן בן דהבאי. אבל אמרו חכמים: אין הלכה כיוחנן בן דהבאי, אלא כל מה שאדם רוצה לעשות באשתו – עושה. משל לבשר הבא מבית הטבח, רצה לאוכלו במלח – אוכלו, צלי – אוכלו, מבושל – אוכלו, שלוק – אוכלו; וכן דג הבא מבית הצייד.
http://he.wikisource.org/wiki/%D7%A0%D7%93%D7%A8%D7%99%D7%9D_%D7%9B_%D7%91
רמב”ם הל’ איסורי ביאה פכ”א
י [ט] אשתו של אדם, מותרת היא לו; לפיכך כל מה שאדם רוצה לעשות באשתו, עושה–בועל בכל עת שירצה, ומנשק בכל אבר שירצה, ובא עליה בין כדרכה, בין שלא כדרכה, בין דרך אברים.
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/i/5121.htm
I’m sure all you apologists out there will come with all the “midas chasidus” stuff. That’s nice when you have to show some goiy that our morals predate theirs and all the other nonsense. It doesn’t do the job when the discussion is between us.
BTW Tzippy dear, that was quite nice of you trying to make this personal. But no, my wife is no second fiddle. I guess it’s part of the privacy of sex you respect.
Whythe I wasn’t referring to sex when I mentioned second fiddle. I was merely stating that women rarely play second fiddle in marriage.
Since you seemed to believe otherwise, I was merely being understanding as to why.
Whythe, I have no idea what you are proving from that gemara. If I understood you correctly, you totally misconstrued the gemara, and took it way out of context. Can you explain?
Wow! Whythe removed his statement. Guess he felt it didn’t prove his point as intended.
Here you go Tzippi, jumping to conclusions again. I guess there is some moderation going on with the comments. (perhaps no Gemara alowed? or some favoritism?)
However, the point I’m trying to prove is simply that in pure Halacha a woman has no ownership of her own body. If you follow the belief system further, you come to realize that a woman has no self-worth in our culture. You can revolutionize it, and I will support you in your endeavor, but you cannot deny what it is.
Wythe, you didn’t respond to the halachos from סימן ר”מ that I mentioned. Are you being intellectually honest?
Re what you just pointed out that women have no ownership of their own body, you are making a big cholent, that is a legal concept that has no bearing on the current discussion.
After that, you jump to this conclusion
“If you follow the belief system further, you come to realize that a woman has no self-worth in our culture.”
and I have no clue how you inferred that from the above.
Kaf,
Point is, when searching for a woman’s sexual rights in halacha, you end up one notch above saying tikun chatzos.
Their dignity is totally dependent on the righteousness of the specific man to whom she was betrothed. Which is about as much rights as the negro in the old south.
Sorry for the reality check.
Wythe, I am sorry to say, but you are showing true am ha’aratzis, in my opinion. I cannot answer you, because instead of answering what I asked, you just say “the point is…”, so I have nothing to add. (By the way, where is the husbands “sexual rights” in halacha? You will find the wife’s rights right there. In case you don’t know, it is in Even Ho’ezer.)
Oy, where are you RandC?
I miss him, he is a worthy opponent, intellectually honest, in ehr redt tzee der zach!
WS, are you related to the commenter Viese Zoken? He used to be active many years ago on a blog called hasidic rebbele.
Whythe –
Quite contraire, unlike the slave, whose everything he picked up immediately belonged to his master – a woman is according to Halacha definitively ‘not property of her husband’, and as such – her own person.
The gemara you pointed out was merely the leeway granted a man, after all the restrictions imposed upon him regarding the ‘proper protocol’ for sex, this gemara lets him know that ultimately he should do it ‘the way he likes it’. There is NO indication though that he has any rights to her, beyond her consent!
Ultimately, gemara ain’t my field. I’ll leave it in the expert hands of kaf, and R&C, should he choose to grace us with his presence.
Kaf,
What is it that you don’t understand? ר”מ is all about kedusha. Right in there with the extra ice cream cone.
Tzippi,
The point of this gemara and rambam is that there is NO “proper protocol” for sex. The protocol is that whenever and whatever HE wants flies.
Lielie demistefine, I am but an imvisende yiddene, and probably shouldn’t get myself involved in this.
But Kaf, you know I love to jump at you when I can;
“Re what you just pointed out that women have no ownership of their own body, you are making a big cholent, that is a legal concept that has no bearing on the current discussion.”
Hu? A legal concept? No bearing? Don’t we understand and judge a society based on their laws and rules?
Whythe, I don’t understand how you answered my question. Is the reason for the teisha midos because of kedusha? Besides, reish mem isn’t just about kedusha, it is a composition of halachos pertaining to sexual relations.
Hoezen, I was itching for an opportunity to explain this, so thanx.
There are many concepts, which are exactly that, legal concepts. In choshen mishpat we find many times that A doesn’t owe B anything, but B has a right to “tar’umes” against A. Meaning, that even though we say that B has no “legal” claim against A, and hence A has no monetary obligation to pay, it is still clear that A wronged B, and B has tarumos on him. (The effect of tar’umos is beyond the scope of this discussion.)
Another example, if I would ruin your ring that you inherited from your mother, and her from her mother and so on, and so it is extremely valuable to you, still, I would not have to pay more than the market value of the ring. The sentimental value of the ring, is not a “legal value”. Does that mean that he doesn’t owe you an apology for that, even after he paid the market value? Not at all.
Besides, and more relevant to our discussion, it is known in the yeshiva’she velt that the husband is only “koineh” her “ishus”. When we say mayseh yodayim of the wife goes to the husband, the gemara in a bunch of places enumerates exactly what monetary obligation the husband has for each and every monetary benefit he has from his wife. It is quid pro quo. And in many of the cases, a woman has the right to say I’d rather keep my own earnings, and I don’t want your financial support. (I actually know someone who his wife told him that le’mayseh…).
Did I leave anything out?
My wife just popped in to the room here, and she wants me to explain what I just wrote. I told her to get online, ask what she wants, and I’ll answer her.
Whats with you people?
Don’t you all know that women are basically “shmates” in Judaism.
Do they have an opinion by a Get? Is there anything in the good book with them in mind? Women rights in halacha is like kreplach by shulchan orach.
PS for all ladies out there: if you think the Friday night chant “eses chail” woman of valor, is to praise your great place on earth, you are deeply mistaking! It’s simply talking about the greatness of our Torah written in a metaphoric style.
Zil, a woman has no say in the get because she “sold” her ishus to the husband. It is his now. If she sold it for a prutah, who else is to blame (unless she was married off as a ketana, then you can have a tayneh). The gemara mentions that there were choshive women that would only accept huge amounts for kidushin.
Fruma: I’m sorry for you and your husband, and hope that you find the strength to stand up for what you want. That said, your “personal” story struck a chord in that it’s an inadvertent parable for how it sometimes feels to be a “God-fearing” Jew. You are “taught” to love God “with all your heart, soul and being”, you try and do everything “his” way, you publicly “celebrate” him (ie the Hanukkah candles), yet he betrays you by favoring others (the emails to other women) and humiliates you with the shades up (see 2,000 years of galut). Like an anti-Shir Hashirim.
BTW, is your handle a reference to the bookselling family or to the “mundane” household appliance?
Dear Fruma
I just want to say that I’m so sorry for what you’re going through. I’m inspired by your courage, and by the fact that you have spent the past four years figuring out how to find your own voice again. I hope you don’t get too discouraged by some of the comments here, questioning your integrity as a person, questioning your passions and desires…. Life is complicated, and living a frum life with this kind of secret must be agonizing in so many ways.
I wish you much strength and i’m sending you my own hizuk, that you should know that you’re not alone.
B’vracha,
Elana
Hi again, Fruma,
I do want to say that your letter has continued to haunt me & the pain I feel for you is enormous. I truly hope that you go for some counseling (marital or sex therapy or both) in order to figure out where to go from here. You should not have to continue suffering the sexual abuse & marital rape that you are experiencing b/c this is NOT was a Jewish marriage is all about. What your husband is forcing you to do is a perverted & NOT at all condoned in our religion (despite the gemara quoted above. Also, don’t think for a minute that by you giving into his perversions he will stay commited to you & stop emailing (or cheating with) other women etc. Clearly he has no respect for you as a woman & he views you solely as an object for his needs & his desires only which is so sad & wrong. What he needs to do, is to begin focusing on your sexual pleasure as he is biblically commanded to do with the Mitzvah of Onah. It’s not all about the guy in a wholesome Jewish marriage. There is a give & take & I truly hope that you look into pursuing counseling & support to help you decide where to go from here. I will add that if you were my daughter, I would insist that you go for couples’ counseling & if your husband is not willing to change his despicable behavior then I would encourage you to leave. There is no reason to continue allowing yourself to be raped time & time again b/c as long as you allow the abuse to continue, it will-that, you can be sure. At the very least, I would recommend that you try to refrain from bringing more babies into this world b/c the more babies you have, the more complicated things will become & the harder it will be for you to ultimately end the abuse.
Hatzlacha & may you have the courage to take the bold moves that will empower you.
Not sure I agree that the author should go to couples counseling. Where there is abuse — and here possibly rape as well — the victim needs her own therapy, to become empowered and aware, before sitting in a therapy room with the abuser/rapist….
good point elana! individual counseling is definitely a good place to start but if the husband is generally a good man as the author states, then perhaps he will be willing to work on his marriage when he realizes that there are serious problems at least from the author’s viewpoint even if he may be fine with the marrriage since she caters to his every whim…
My world is spinning,
In the 30 seconds that I read this I swear the room started moving.
This is a tradegy.S&M is only designed for 2 willing partners.
I think when your kalla teach told you lots of grown up things she forgot to mention that sholom bayis does not extend to rape and that if you are not comfortsble with something in sex you need to say something! You need to compromise for your family – but what he is doing is against halacha anyway, window open, light room. If we are told to not have kibbud av if our parents tell us to do something against halacha – then this surely applies to ones husband also.
By the way – 5 minutes later the room is still spinning.
i know what u mean “g” ‘cuz this story is so horrific. S&M should NOT be happening in an Orthodox Jewish marriage even with the lights off & the window shades closed if both partners are not willing participants. i really hope that fruma will take the necessary action to protect her rights & writing about it is certainly a step in the right direction.
not really sure what to say. I think that sex should be a holy experience,but also that games can be fun. I think that maybe the Kalla Teacher never enjoyed sex so she said that she should do these things to please her husband. could it be that some women may actually enjoy these games. Like the people remarked b4 me, S&M is for 2 willing partners. It is a game, getting away from reality. In my opinion, both partners should have pleasure and that if you are not receiving pleasure your husband is not doing what he is obligated to do for you in the ketuba. He is acting in an abusive way. Do you like him? Does he disgust you? Can you live without him? I amnot sure marriage therapy will help,either. Why do women have to be passive acceptors? women have to be coy and shy and tsenua…but if a women wants something, she is a whore or a slut…or worse yet rebelious. Good for you for opening the conversation. Strong women are frightening for men…I thinkhe could use a little of that…
how can someone who never enjoyed sex be a kallah teacher. that’s a travesty. A hot and sizzly sex life should be the number one prerequisite for anyone who wants to pursue such a hallowed career.
Instead I fear it is a way for them to vent their unfulfilled sexual frustration on unsuspecting neophytes.
sara, being a kallah teacher does not require one to have a hot & sizzling sex life! it’s about teaching the girls all of the laws involved with taharas hamishpacha/family purity-the laws of niddah, calculating when to expects ones period, the harchakos (extra “fences” to prevent a couple from touching one another during the niddah cycle)when to go to the mikvah after their periods, etc… there are lots of nitty gritty laws & then chumras (stringencies) which are taught. it’s not as though kallah teachers are giving tips on how to have a hot & steamy sex life. i don’t think it’s in their job description
!
Jackie;
“Strong women are frightening for men”
Ya think?
“sara, being a kallah teacher does not require one to have a hot & sizzling sex life! it’s about teaching the girls all of the laws involved with taharas hamishpacha”
THAT is exactly the problem! The problem is that the orthodox version of sex education is check yourself, dip in the mikvah and please your husband.
That explains why so many women are suffering in silence.
and i bet a lot of men are suffering too.
elana, while i never took a sex ed class in my BY HS, my guess would be that in a typical public junior high or HS, it’s all about safe sex, using condoms & the like. i highly doubt the teacher goes into stressing female sexual pleasure or what have you but then again i don’t know that first hand. my point is that even non-Orthodox couples generally don’t have a class on how to have a hot & steamy sex life. i don’t think it’s limited to the Orthodox or Chassidic world. Personally i was happy to learn things along the way with together my spouse w/o requiring any classes on the topic. i do remember learning along the way that if something is unpleasurable for one of the partners, it should not be done. i guess fruma’s teacher had a different point of view.
i wasn’t idealizing the non-jewish world… merely suggesting another area in which orthodoxy needs work
“… there are lots of nitty gritty laws & then chumras (stringencies) which are taught. it’s not as though kallah teachers are giving tips on how to have a hot & steamy sex life. i don’t think it’s in their job description”
If sex isn’t fun, if it isn’t hot, if it doesn’t make your toes curl, if it doesn’t break down the barriers and the face you show the world like Avraham broke the idols then it isn’t holy and doesn’t lead to true Shalom Bayis.
im just shocked that you are still subjecting yourself to this. He is obviously watching porn, and you should say no.
Dont blame your religion. This is nothing to do with yiddeshkeit, porn inspired abuse is much worse in the secular world, but for gods sake woman, get a grip and tell him to stop.
Strong women only make weak men afraid.
Revolting. I shuddered, reading this. Rape comes to mind immediately.
“He is a good man, a kind person. A good father, most of the time.” I hear this justification in that community all the time. Haven’t heard strange sex stories, that part they wouldn’t confess to me, but as long as he’s “a good man,” he can scream at his wife, he can belittle her. If he’s making a living, you can justify anything.
This is unmitigated misogyny. You don’t have to put up with this. It is abuse, poor and simple. Please run and get out.
“Those sites” are Shalom Byais killers! You should sit down with you husband and show him this site – yourbrainonporn.com . You are a good woman.
** pure and simple ** Not ** poor and simple **