The Mom Delusion
Weeping Madonna2010[Opinion]
I usually trudge along with Chasidic women to the J train every morning. Like them, I’m close to the JMZ lines. All of us walk mechanically, like robots, toward the loud, screeching subway train.
“Speaking of loud and screechy,” I think to myself as I look down into one woman’s stroller. A noisy, overly energized child is seated in the stroller, surrounded by his siblings who are either holding on to parts of the baby carriage or Mommy’s hand. I stare at the children from behind my sunglasses with a set face, neither smiling nor frowning. As my eyes wander from the stroller seat to the long skirt, my eyes follow the skirt upwards to its wearer’s face.
She’s tired, I can tell: her gaze is in the distance, and she seems irritated when one of her passel of kids tries to get her attention. I know the look all too well. I have been a babysitter for a Manhattan family for over two years. I am currently working in a clothing and toy store for kids. Though I have had countless wonderful, even fun, days with the kids I babysit, the desire to get away from them never goes away.
My experience tells me something else, too: this woman may or may not be happy, but she is clearly overburdened. I’ve seen the weary symptoms and I know the type.
A few weeks later I’m at Shabbos dinner with Chasidic friends. The conversation is as usual, with jokes thrown about (“mostly off-color”) between tossing back highly-liquored drinks, until, at some point, entirely unintentionally, I drop a very unkosher bomb.
“I don’t want kids,” I say matter-of-factly.
My friends at the dinner table eye me uncertainly. “You mean now,” one says with a knowing nod. “You’re still young, of course.” To him that’s the only thing I could possibly mean. And he gets it, or so he thinks.
I raise my eyebrows. “No,” I say. “I mean never. I don’t want to have children, ever.”
The room remains silent. One friend dips a crusty piece of challah into tomato dip (“the best hemishe tomato dip,” the label says), another throws back a shot of Wild Turkey bourbon.
“It’s not that hard to imagine, is it?” I ask the room. It was a question for the table, a room full of at least ten people, and the answer could have been anything. I was only answered by a room full of skeptic stares.
It has always been that way when I have been totally honest about my sentiments on the matter of future motherhood. I have never sugarcoated the idea—I do not want children. It seems I am one of the few females in this country, not to mention this planet, who feels this way. It seems that I am constantly reminded of this fact whenever I find it necessary to voice my stance.
Being at a Chasidic table made it worse.
I guess I don’t have any instilled conditions: I was born this way. Though it certainly sounds like a dramatization of my personal choice, I believe it is true. But, it didn’t make the twenty eyes burning a hole in my forehead any less awkward. My friends’ reactions, even in their simplest forms, did not surprise me.
“You don’t want one now” implies that I will some day. That is totally fine, even acceptable. But never? They don’t seem to buy it. Their reaction is a familiar one, if only slightly more intense, but it’s not exclusive to this group of current or former Chasidim. My truthful admission, as I often learn, typically results in silent conclusions: She had a bad childhood; she has Daddy issues; she is physically unable to have children.
I am lucky enough to have a mother who thinks my choice is “just fine”—she can always have grandchildren through my younger brother, when the time comes.
But all this prejudice began to stir conclusions of my own: women must be socially conditioned to think they want kids. This is often a difficult hypothesis for me to voice. Perhaps some readers are now frowning, scoffing, or even stopped reading at this point altogether.
My opinion is often reinforced by observing other New York mothers at playgrounds, children’s boutiques (including the one at which I’m employed), you name it. They don’t seem happy with their little bundle of joy. The smiles of contentment we’re made to believe are the natural result of reproducing are, for some odd reason, hard to find.
The behavior of mothers in New York City now even has a name: Mommy Rage.
Some mothers feel entitled to have the entire world either step aside or lend a hand when they need one. One woman, Denise Albert, even wrote very self-satifyingly about her right to have other New Yorkers make way or pay obeisance for her prince in a stroller.
The Gothamist blog summed it up well: “She wants you to get out of her way when she’s trying to navigate her stroller, to hold the door open, to not sit in front of her kid at the movie theater, to not use the curb ramp unless you have wheels, to not allow your animals or their tongues to come within striking distance of her or her family, and for chrissakes, ‘if you work in a store, hurry up. I don’t always have time for small talk.’ Yeah, stop trying to make human connections! Just get Denise her latte and STFU!”
These women often hire babysitters to care for their kids while they are able to enjoy much sought-after free time—I get that. Everybody needs time to themselves. Stress happens. But these women sometimes use their strollers as an 800 dollar weapon against the single, childless world. Those strollers, not to mention attitudes, symbolize two things: they are more important than me; they will run me over. These people (yes, this includes some mega-Dads out there) have no fun at playgrounds. They want their four dollar coffees faster than anyone else. How dare you slow them down.
Something in this poorly constructed equation does not add up. Social pressure has told the “woman who has it all” that she is not, and can’t be, complete without reproducing. It’s either comply, or suffer the onslaught of judgment until you hit menopause, forcing them into an entirely undesirable position for which the rest of society should now be made to pay. Thus the Manhattan-Park Slope-Williamsburg-Greenpoint “Crazy Mom” stereotype was born.
The pressure doesn’t seem to stop at one child: the bucolic family picture typically contains two children. Double points if you have one of each sex.
My observations of Chasidic families indicate a somewhat different kind of social pressure, but it seems only different in form, not in substance. With each additional sibling a young girl gains as a child growing up, she must be constantly reminded of future motherhood. To me, that’s brainwashing, pure and simple. “You serve Hashem by serving your husband and family. Be a good wife and mother.” The image of several children is indicative of a holy family. People observe a Chasidic mother on the street with her young brood and think, “She’s doing her duty.”
I have no doubt that any woman, Chasidic or secular, loves every child she has. There exists an unbreakable bond when a woman gives birth that, some will argue, is beyond science.
But the reality on the street indicates that ideologies and social norms aside, motherhood is not always a pleasant state to be in. Examples are everywhere: women who are out with more than one child, red-faced and rude, all carrying some kind of (dare I say it) fear on their shoulders. A fear that seems to indicate the single, most important consideration of motherhood: what would the neighbors think?
75 Responses
The site counted 77 responses; 75 survive in the archived copies.
This is not a bad essay, but the entire part about Chassidic mothers could/should have been omitted. Firstly, the leading paragraphs sounded so stereotypical, I almost didn’t read the rest of the essay. (Which would have been a pity; there are some interesting points.) Secondly, the chassidic mindset about motherhood and family is an entirely different subject from the one you’re discussing. I read that article in New York Magazine which talks about Mommy Rage (I *think* that’s what you’re referring to) and I read the Gothamist piece. They totally don’t relate to the chassidic mother’s issues. This attitude you encounter is pretty much universal (a friend of mine who’s in her late 20s and is married gets the identical reaction when she says she never wants to have kids). Your lumping the everyone-must-want-kids syndrome with chassidic mothers’ exhaustion because of the *number* of kids they have detracts from the genuinely important points you make.
“All the prejudice began to stir a conclusion in me: women must be socially conditioned to think they want kids.”
You are wrong. We are biologically wired to want to reproduce, or our species will be extinct.
Which makes your attitude an anomaly.
And in defense of the Yuppy mom, you fail to mention those who chose to give up their lucrative career or practice, and stay home to breast feed (for four years), and to raise their kids.
That isn’t something that I have done.
first this:
” women must be socially conditioned to think they want kids.”
and then later this:
First this:
“women must be socially conditioned to think they want kids.”
and then this:
“motherhood is not always a pleasant state to be in. ”
How does the second prove the first? Isn’t that the gist of the article?
I can only say one thing, and I know it’s cliche; you haven’t had any kids. Many times I am feeling down, and my little one jumps on my head, and yes, he “bothers me”, but all I can do is smile, and feel my heart swelling, forgeting to be depressed. Yes, that is true, not “conditioning”.
I recommend Nobody’s Mother: Life Without Kids, (and Nobody’s Father: Life Without Kids for the men out there) edited by Lynne Van Luven. Very interesting and mostly well written perspectives on the subject.
I’m with you there. I may want kids (maybe someday?), but I don’t think childbearing or -rearing is God’s gift to mankind. And Hashem help me if a get a Bugaboo stroller.
I have babysat for several different families in Brooklyn, and some of them (the parents of two disabled kids, for example) didn’t seem to realize what they were getting into. I’ve seen those defeated looks on their faces, too.
I feel bad for the Chasidishe women who feel that reproducing is Hashem’s plan for them. What about their plans? What about the women that feel like you, what place do they have in their society?
“I feel bad for the Chasidishe women who feel that reproducing is Hashem’s plan for them”.
Chasidishe women typically don’t have children because that is hashems plan. They have children because they WANT to. What else should they do?
Go shopping for * your* kids?
Hashems plan only comes in play when the chasidishe woman feels overwhelmed with six children, and doesn’t feel ready for the seventh one yet. That’s when she might tell herself, “I shouldn’t mess with gods plan”.
Believing that chasidishe women have children because they want to be “holy” and follow gods plan, is like believing that chasidic men have sex only because they want to procreate…
Hoezen, nice “tzushtell”.
With you around, the tone of the discussion lightened greatly, it was way too personal and childish earlier.
You are wrong. We are biologically wired to want to reproduce, or our species will be extinct.
Non-sequitur. A species must reproduce to avoid distinction, but how does it follow we are ‘biologically wired’ with the desire to do so? And how many people you know choose to have children out of genuine concern the human species will go extinct? Last I checked, we had an overpopulation problem.
The perceived need for everybody to raise a family is certainly socially conditioned. And out of an urge to leave something behind; a signature; a token that we once walked this planet, which is something we could achieve in other ways as well. The progeny of the righteous is their benevolence.
Hoezen, take it away! I don’t want to ruin it for you with my bumbling, so I’ll just sit back and watch, there gotta be a juicy one coming!
HT:
“Chasidishe women typically don’t have children because that is hashems plan. They have children because they WANT to.”
Really?! Are you saying there aren’t those women who would rather not have children (or would at least like to postpone the event), but do so only for religious or social reasons?
Of course, as a species, the desire to reproduce is crucial for its survival. But so is heterosexuality. Anomalies exist, but they often can’t follow their true inclinations due to social and religious pressure.
” Are you saying there aren’t those women who would rather not have children
Of course, as a species, the desire to reproduce is crucial for its survival. But so is heterosexuality. Anomalies exist,
Rebel,
Did you read what I wrote?
HT: “Chasidishe women typically don’t have children because that is hashems plan.
Your attitude is an anomaly.
Hint; typically and anomaly…
Misyavni,
“And how many people you know choose to have children out of genuine concern the human species will go extinct?”
Using the analogy I used before; how many men do you know have sex so they can sow their seed? Would you argue that since men don’t consciously do that, they haven’t been biologically wired to do exactly that?
“Last I checked, we had an overpopulation problem”
True, but that wasn’t the condition when we first started populating the earth. (Which raises the interesting question as to why Freud’s todestrieb (death drive) is still viewed as a pathology.)
“The perceived need for everybody to raise a family is certainly socially conditioned”.
I guess Misyavni you would argue that little girls are socially conditioned to play with dolls. Of course as with every other aspect of life, there is a degree of social conditioning involved. But maternal instinct is extremely visceral and exactly that.* Instinct*.
“which is something we could achieve in other ways as well. The progeny of the righteous is their benevolence.”
Read your own words; achieved in other ways *as well.*
The effects of nature and nurture are notoriously difficult to tease apart. And now with the emerging study of epigenetics the delineation between the two is becoming hopelessly muddled. But what difference does it make? Whether having children is a biological drive or social conditioning or a combination of the two, there will invariably be people who will not want any. And whether the drive is genetically encoded or culturally learned still doesn’t say anything about whether it is a moral imperative or even just a “good thing.” (Clearly caring for children you already have is a moral imperative, but having children in the first place might be a bad thing. Or not. In any case, biological impulse tells us nothing about that.)
It is also true that children, as long as they are living at home, detract from how happy people perceive themselves to be; many (or maybe only a few) studies have shown this. This is not surprising — children add much stress to one’s life. But even this doesn’t mean that people don’t *really* want children. We really do want some things that add stress to our lives, even if it sometimes makes us unhappy.
It also also true that a drive for having children is necessary for species survival, but our species solved this problem long ago by imbuing us with a formidable biologically-driven impetus to have sex with any partner considered suitable enough. Over most of our history this translated directly into having offspring. Now that sex and offspring are largely decoupled, we do not necessarily have a biological drive to have children as such, absent the sex. (I don’t know if we do or not, I’m just saying it doesn’t follow from the argument that children are necessary for species survival.)
Misyavni & BD, given that a biological and biochemical basis for maternal instinct would be beneficial to a species’ survival, expect one to exist. (Protection of an infant is important too, and this may cause a desire to have something to protect.)
“Virgin female sheep show maternal behavior towards foreign lambs upon cerebrospinal fluid infusion of oxytocin, which they would not do otherwise.”
“Emerging study of epigenetics”, I trust and hope that you are not suggesting that nurture might cause a genetic imprint.
‘but our species solved this problem long ago by imbuing us with a formidable biologically-driven impetus to have sex with any partner considered suitable enough”.
BD,
Unlike the rest of the world Mother Nature isn’t sexist and didn’t just leave us out of the equation.
Spoken like a true man, but talk for yourself, and not for me
“given that a biological and biochemical basis for maternal instinct would be beneficial to a species’ survival, expect one to exist.”
That doesn’t logically follow at all. Are you suggesting that *anything* that would be beneficial for species’ survival is expected to be encoded in our genes? This obviously isn’t so.
“Virgin female sheep show maternal behavior”
You are confusing the maternal instinct toward children who are already born (which unquestionably exists and is biologically driven) with the instinct to have children in the first place, which may in fact not be an instinct at all.
“I trust and hope that you are not suggesting that nurture might cause a genetic imprint.”
I *am* suggesting that environment can play a role in how certain genes are expressed. Insofar as any biological impulse is genetically based, environment may very well have an effect on whether the underlying gene will express that impulse. (Of course, real-world impulses are probably a result of a complex interplay of many different genes. And ‘environment’ might be more specific that everything included in the broad term of “nurture”. But the principle remains.)
which unquestionably exists and is biologically driven.
This is the maternal instinct which we refer too. This drives women to desire, to yearn for a child. Admit defeat
“This is the maternal instinct which we refer too.”
Who is this “we” you are talking about? This piece didn’t mention the instinct people (and animals) have to care for their children, which I don’t think anyone ever questioned. It’s the (questionable) instinct to have children in the first place that this discussion was and is about. Are you really incapable of seeing the difference between these two issues?
H.T.
“True, but that wasn’t the condition when we first started populating the earth. (Which raises the interesting question as to why Freud’s todestrieb (death drive) is still viewed as pathology.)”
I never understood Thanatos in that sense. It’s not a simple drive to cease existence. I understand it as being secondary and complimentary to Eros, in the way pain compliments pleasure. For Eros (the creative force) to exist, a certain measure of Thanatos (destructive force) has to be present. Some claim that Freud heavily borrowed his unconscious psyche construct of Eros and Thanatos from the well known Kabalistic theme of Chesed Gevureh and Tifereth.
Simultaneous and tangent to every Eros drive exists the Thanatos drive. Eros and Thanatos are opposite drives that complement each other and one without the other can’t exist. In a sense Thanatos is a creative drive in its own way. It’s the need to complete and destroy for the sense of moving on to the next stage or the next level that enables the repeat of the Eros drive. Thanatos destroys for the sake of Eros to be able to create new. The best example I heard to portray how Eros and Thanatos work in tandem is the mechanical and instinctual approach we take to sex. Eros is the creative force, the love force that seeks expression in sex. Thanatos is the drive to reach orgasm which in a sense seeks to end the erotic drive, in the way orgasm quells the erotic drive. But in the same sense Thanatos works in favor of Eros. By seeking to curb the expression of Eros it enables Eros to repeat the creative drive and start anew. If there would only be Eros with no limitations and without ever reaching climax Eros’s mission to create would never be achieved. There is a certain destruction that is necessary for creation. We create on the ruins of what we destroy.
I agree with your take on motherhood and the reproductive instincts.
BD, I respectfully suggest that there is overlap between the two. Think about it.
BD,
If I instinctively need food, can we postulate from that that I would do something (shop, hunt, cook,) so that I can get the food?
Or does it mean that I would probably look for a job that involved babysitting *your* kids, to appease my ‘maternal instincts’?
RandC,
How did I know that one commenter would come flying like a bee to the honey when I threw the term Thanatos out there?
Fascinating little essay you got there. Thanks for sharing.
BD, re epigenetics, point taken, give the broadness in definition of the term nurture which can also cover things like diet change as a result of nurture.
You probably know though, that epigenetics is a lot more than just a phenotype arising as the result of differential gene expression.
With all this epigenetics crap, we’re getting a bit far away from the original post. Does anyone feel that there is a legitimate place in Chasidishe culture for women who want to delay childrearing, or have no desire to do it at all?
“Does anyone feel that there is a legitimate place in Chasidishe culture for women who want to delay childrearing, or have no desire to do it at all?”
I’m sure there are some Chasidishe women, a small minority perhaps, who would want to delay childrearing. If they are lucky enough to get their husband on board, who would stop them?
As for Chasidishe women who don’t want to have children, ever, I dare say that would be the equivalent to the gay guy who is only attracted to females. Not wanting children would by far not be her only issue. A Chasidishe married women to a large degree, *is* her children.
Maddona, if you want to find reasons to pity us, I can help you. But women being *forced* to be mothers, isn’t one of them.
Conversely, being acquainted with quite a few infertile women within the Chasidic community, I’ll tell you this much. Their life is a living hell.
>>Not wanting children would by far not be her only issue. A Chasidishe married women to a large degree, *is* her children.<<
I disagree with this statement. Some women simply don't have that maternal instinct. They may choose to have one or two children (or none) and then focus on other things in their lives. A career, for instance. Why would you say they have other issues too? They may be few and far between but they exist.
Maddona. On a side note, why is Maddona weeping?
Maya,
Please, reread
As for Chasidishe women who don’t want to have children, EVER
They may choose to have one or two and then focus on other things in their lives.
Absolutely.
But Sarah did not state her question that way.
She specifically asked about the women who would never want any children.
I know women who don’t want to have children. Ever. Admittedly, they may have been forced, or encouraged, to have at least one. Madonna may be right that such women may decide to have kids only because of peer pressure.
At this point, I do not know anyone who has held off having kids forever in the Chassidishe world. But I’m sure that if there would be some who decide to do that, they can always blame it on infertility issues.
HT that is a scary thought. If I am predictable it might be time to change my pen name
Sorry bro, but that just won’t work. Others have tried it, but they can’t get away…
“At this point, I do not know anyone who has held off having kids forever in the Chassidishe world.”
Maya, do you know anyone in the chassidishe world that is mechalel shabbos in public? To have at least a son and a daughter is a biblical obligation, so how is it any different?
But I take issue with what HT mentioned that she knows a few infertile women, and their life is a living hell. That doesn’t necessarily have to be only because of their “maternal instinct”, although I am sure that is part of it. In a community where a woman’s life is her children, like you said earlier, where does that leave a childless woman? If she can’t discuss children issues with her friends, that leaves her with not much else to talk about.
Maybe that is exactly the point you are trying to make, but it didn’t seem that way.
>>To have at least a son and a daughter is a biblical obligation, so how is it any different?<<
According to what I was told, the biblical obligation is on the man, not the woman.
“I know women who don’t want to have children. Ever. Admittedly, they may have been forced, or encouraged, to have at least one.”
Please be real, Maya. You know Chasidishe women who don’t want to have children, ever, only because they’re just not the maternal type. That’s all?
And if that is the case, why wouldn’t you know women who delayed the process? I mean, were they forced within the first three months of marriage?
Can someone tell me what is the gray rectangle at the bottom of each post, underneath where it says “like this post?”, and when you run your mouse over it, it turns red. I can’t figure it out!
BD and Martin, you’ve raised an interesting argument, and it’s giving me food for thought. What a pleasure. You guys should comment more often; maybe the comments ratio on this site will shift toward the intelligent side.
Oh and BD, thanks for not responding to the dumb questions and comments addressed to you. We can all use a break from stupidity.
Yes, HT, only because they are not the maternal type.
And yes, they tried to delay the process but weren’t given that ‘heter’ to and they were forced to get pregnant within the first three months of marriage. It may be difficult to understand but it’s been that way.
Kaf,
That WAS exactly my point.
And I find it very hard to believe that a woman, living in a society where such extreme value is placed on children, to opt not to have any *only* because she isn’t that crazy about them.
“According to what I was told, the biblical obligation is on the man, not the woman.”
Right. But how is her chassidishe husband going to fulfill his requirement? Since he is obligated, when she married it was implied that she is agreeing to that, and she becomes “meshubad”. Unless she wants him to go out and find himself a second wife…..
So she has one of two options: go along with it and procreate, at least the minimum. Or divorce him. But I’m sure most women in that situation choose to go with the first and make the best of it.
So Maya, you’re saying that your friend would be ready to go through life being the world’s greatest pity, invited to kvater a dozen times a year, tehilim hachide said in her name by her classmates, Challe taken for her, gemachs and hotlines started in her zechis, her siblings and friends agonizing every time they become pregnant, how should I tell her? Conversations changed in her presence, you get the picture…
And all that, just because she isn’t crazy about kids.
Very interesting
Exactly Maya. My point is that she cannot claim to be a chassidishe woman, which is supposed to mean that she believes in yiddishkeit and she tries to lead her life according to its beliefs, and then object to the fact that she has to have kids. Just like it wouldn’t make any sense for a chassidishe man to complain why he needs to pray three times a day. If you believe, then you believe. If you don’t believe, then apparently you aren’t a chassidishe woman. You can’t say, I am chassidish in all regards, except for shmiras shabbos which I don’t agree with. It just doesn’t make any sense.
HT, did I say anywhere that I have such friends? I guessed that it could be done if a woman is desperate enough to avoid having children in our community.
I do know a woman, though, who is seemingly having infertility issues and having everyone pity her while she is actually on birth control. She doesn’t care about what her family and friends think or how much they pity her. She’s living her life the way she wants it. Granted, it’s only about 5 years, but still. That’s considered a long time in our community.
Also, there’s a difference between ‘not wanting kids’ and ‘not being crazy about kids.’
>>Just like it wouldn’t make any sense for a chassidishe man to complain why he needs to pray three times a day<<
Again, it's not an obligation for us like it is for men to pray three times a day. We can avoid it IF WE CHOOSE TO while still staying observant. Of course that would involve many uncomfortable situations but it can be done. It has nothing to do with our religious beliefs. How can you compare it to shmiras Shabbos?
HT, maybe Maya’s friend would like to be open and tell everyone she doesn’t want to have any kids, and then she wouldn’t have any of those problems you mentioned, although I believe she wouldn’t be left with many heimishe friends. Not necessarily because they would deliberately ostracize her, rather because it is such a strange phenomenon in the heimishe world, that it would be the equivalent of a heimishe man wearing a pink hat. Nothing wrong with it…………. but strange it is!
Again, nowhere did I say that I have such a friend. I was just guessing that it could be done. Please stop taking words out of my mouth.
Maya, I mentioned above that her husband is obligated, and by her marrying him she accepts to help him with his obligation and so now she is obligated as well. Unless she lets him marry another wife to have kids with.
If she doesn’t accept that, (meaning that before she gets married she makes it clear to him that she isn’t having any kids) he wouldn’t be allowed to marry her, because he has to fulfill his own obligation. If he marries her anyway, then he is not “chassidish” or even frum.
Do you not understand that?
“Did I say anywhere that I have such friends?”
Oh come on Maya, it’s a way of writing.
And suppose you did have such friends, would that be a problem?
I understand. And that’s why I claim that most women go along with the idea of having a few kids even if they are not all that excited about it.
Which proves the point that some women may be forced to have kids, either to help their husbands fulfill their obligation or to conform to the community. And it’s probably both.
Maya, thanks for being honest. The impression earlier was that you do have such a friend. When HT said she has a hard time believing it, this is what you said;
“And yes, they tried to delay the process but weren’t given that ‘heter’ to and they were forced to get pregnant within the first three months of marriage. It may be difficult to understand but it’s been that way.”
>>Oh come on Maya, it’s a way of writing.
And suppose you did have such friends, would that be a problem?<<
It's not a 'way of writing.' You simply took a guesswork statement I made and turned it into a fact.
And if I would have such friends, would what be a problem? What's your question?
God, it’s difficult to explain everything to everyone.
HT was talking about a fictional ‘friend’ who is holding off children forever. The comment you quoted is about a friend holding off children for a few years more than is normal or accepted. The one you quoted obviously has a kid already. Two different things.
“Which proves the point that some women may be forced to have kids, either to help their husbands fulfill their obligation or to conform to the community. And it’s probably both.”
Maya, would you say that a chassidishe man is “forced” to pray three times a day, or to keep shabbos? Of course he might not be easy for him, and he’d be much happier if he doesn’t do it. But he chose to lead a frum life, and so he is now “forced” to do the above. Same with your theoretical friend. If she chooses to marry a frum man, then she “chose” to be obligated to have kids. Nobody forced her.
Kaf, you’re just throwing around the words ‘chose’ and ‘forced’ interchangeably. If you stick to one, you’re last two sentences would read like this:
Just like he ‘chose’ to lead a frum life, he is now ‘forced’ to pray. Same way, she ‘chose’ to lead a frum life and is now ‘forced’ to have kids.
Both can opt out at any time. Like I said, the woman may decide to get divorced but she can still stay religious and even Chassidish.
Truthfully, this is confusing me a bit. But I stand strong on my views.
Maya, you said your friend was forced to get pregnant, and she would rather never have any kids. So Hoezen was having a hard time believing that, and so she tried showing how uncomfortable it would be for a heimishe woman without kids, and so she isn’t buying that your friend was only forced by others to become pregnant, and if the decision would be her own, she would never become pregnant. So of course your friend has kids already. The question is whether your friend, who is real, would REALLY choose not to ever have any kids if it was entirely up to her.
Hoezen and I are answering you in two distinct ways. Hoezen is saying she isn’t buying that someone would reallychoose to go through all that awkwardness, and I am saying that by choosing to marry a frum man, she has chosen to have kids, and that isn’t the same as being forced.
Am I missing something?
“Like I said, the woman may decide to get divorced but she can still stay religious and even Chassidish.”
Right. You prove my point. She chooses to stay married, and have kids. So who is being forced anything? What is the complaint?
Kaf, you and HT can choose to believe whatever it is you want to. I just stated the facts as I know them, and the rest is up to you.
Ok Maya.
I just went back to your original post, and I see what your saying.
All you’re saying is that there are some women who would have liked not to have any kids and they are lacking that maternal instinct. Of course, there are reasons that they chose to have kids, either because HT’s reason (the awkwardness), or my reason (her husbands obligation). I do believe that that is very possible (although I am not sure on what level of their consciousness do they realize that they would rather not have kids).
This was your initial post;
“I disagree with this statement. Some women simply don’t have that maternal instinct. They may choose to have one or two children (or none) and then focus on other things in their lives. A career, for instance. Why would you say they have other issues too? They may be few and far between but they exist.”
Please correct me if I misunderstood you. Thanks.
All I’m claiming is that some women would rather not have kids. They’re having them anyway, but may be severely limiting the number compared to what’s expected of them.
So we’re on the same page.
The question is whether there can exist a phenomenon of a Chasidish woman not wanting *any* kids. There can. (And there does.) But in those instances, indeed societal pressure would make it very uncomfortable.
As for the women who choose to stop their family after one, or two, or four? Some do. And others are free to assume that there are fertility issues.
Kaf, the obligation aspect you mention – is only relevant as far as the first child (or one of each sex). Post that, so long as he does his due diligence, (as often as he likes
) she can do her utmost to protect herself. AFAIK Halacha doesn’t disallow that.
Tzippi, that is the biblical obligation. Then there is a מצוה מדברי קבלה of ובערב אל תנח ידיך. This second obligation doesn’t have any “shiur”, and it does not carry the weight of a biblical obligation. But the gist of it is to have as many kids as “possible”. How you define “possible”, would depend on your rav… I have my own opinion on that. I don’t go to a rav for a heter, I can decide for myself. Just a little story for you-
Last time it was relevant, my wife didn’t feel comfortable without going to a rav, (I suspect she didn’t think I was being entirely honest with her, lol) so I went to the rav, he gave his opinion, and then I told him mine, asked him to back up his, we argued a bit, then he admitted that I might be right… After that, my wife did as I told her….
Kaf and maya really ought to get a room.
Amongst my (mostly medicaid) clientele the following are the most prominent reasons for tying tubes (after a mean of 3 kids)
– no more diapers
– health reasons
– why should I have more??
Money is one of the most common reasons for temporary birth control methods, I guess they hope they’ll get richer.
As a guy who wants to avoid having children and has been in similar round-table discussions I notice girls who voice their opposition to child-rearing always get the most criticism – like their purpose on earth is to pop out rug rats. For all the complaining I hear from women about how men treat them like sex-objects the real complaint should be how they are treated by society like baby factories.
On the other hand there are a few big advantages to being a childfree girl; dating prospects. The number of women who know they don’t want children is far fewer than the number of men who don’t. So when we run into one of you you are worth your weigh in gold. Whenever I date I hide the fact I don’t want kids to increase my dating prospects. Advertising this as a woman, however, seems the prudent thing to do. Demand for your type far outstrips supply.
What a lovely and revitalizing breath of fresh air, Colin.
btw what do you mean a woman who has 2 kids doesn’t have a maternal instinct???? perhaps she has enough of a maternal instinct devote it to the two she’s already got!
“women must be socially conditioned to think they want kids”
First off, people are socially conditioned to do all sorts of things. Do you also not wear high heeled shoes or shave your armpits? Do you have a problem with all societal pressures, or just the few you don’t want to do yourself?
Secondly, are you saying that because mothers are tired when they have to take their whining children on the subway, that means women don’t really want children, they are just socially brainwashed into thinking they do? Because motherhood isn’t always fun, is actually more stressful than fun, people must really, deep down, not have desired to have children?
Have you ever seen a baby in a room full of teenage girls? Have you ever noticed how they all line up and demand a turn holding the wiggling creature that will most likely spit up on them? I never had the desire to hold someone else’s child, but plenty of people do. I have had that warm maternal feeling some people get when you see a mother lovingly holding her baby.
You start off complaining that no one understands that you don’t want to have children, then go on to say you don’t understand how people do want to have them. I understand women not wanting to be mothers. Maybe you should try and be a bit more understanding when I’m tired of pushing my three year old on the swing for the 300th time.
One more thing. (Sorry, I don’t seem to shut up, do I?) The stroller thing. There are people who push strollers and expect people to get out of their way. There are people who look at people with strollers and say, “How dare you get in my way with your stroller!” This is just a kind of person that is found in all different walks of life. The person who thinks he or she is better than everyone else. Rudeness is not a trait held exclusively by mothers. There are many mothers (myself included) who are mortified and embarrassed when their strollers get in someone’s way.
There. I’m done.
Sarah,
Thank you for getting excited about my piece, but allow me to clarify.
First of all, be wary of sweeping generalizations. Rarely do I use them, so be careful when you generalize against me. I gave an account of a situation in which I found myself, quite literally, confronted for having taken a stance on my OWN future. This event was very specific, and I really don’t complain that it’s the WHOLE WORLD that’s against my decision (at times I’ll joke that I’ll die childless…sounds harsh, doesn’t it?).
In this instance, I took my dinner with friends to open a discourse about how often I have been chastised, by both men and women, for not having the “maternal instinct.” Seemingly, I am less of a woman as a result.
As to your example of a group of teenage girls wanting to hold a newborn baby, did you consider the 1 girl out of 10 who doesn’t want to be a mother? Sure, if it were me, I’d be in that line. But don’t forget that holding a baby for 3 minutes is quite different than raising it for 18 years. Not only that, but it would be insulting to the mother if I WEREN’T in that line. Agree?
Pushing a child in the swing 300 times: I DID note that everyone needs a break, yes? Besides, don’t mothers understand that, once the child is born, not every day is peachy and fun when raising him/her? Hence, the “delusion.”
Our culture, in particular the dynamic “frum house”, women are overtly encouraged to have kids. It’s understood. If she doesn’t, all Hell breaks loose (note my mentioning of cruel and ignorant speculations that usually arise). A mother is special; a single woman is not.
All species of mammals can procreate. Big deal.
Good shabbos.
I think the point of the article was missed here, Sarah…
@ Tzippi: Yes, THANK YOU for recognizing the social pressure aspect! I think it’s really the most apt argument of all.
“This event was very specific, and I really don’t complain that it’s the WHOLE WORLD that’s against my decision”
I’m sorry. The way you spoke about it sounded as if you were mentioning this one case as an example of many. I thought you were saying that more often than not people do not understand why you don’t ever want to be a mother.
The example of the teenage girls? Yes, I did consider the one out of ten that doesn’t want to be a mother. I was making the point that perhaps you didn’t consider the 9 out of 10 that do. I am not saying that every girl is born with a maternal instinct. I am saying that many girls are, therefor I don’t see your point about motherhood simply being a societal pressure.
You mentioning that everyone needs a break only made the point of your article more confusing to me. You say that everyone needs a break, but you also say this: “women must be socially conditioned to think they want kids” and then say your opinion is reinforced by women in the park who don’t look happy.
Meagan, you may be right. What is the point of the article? If the article is simply saying that chasidish communities pressure women to have children . . . of course they do. In the Torah, men are commanded to have children. If you live in a religious Jewish community you will be pressured by everyone to follow everything in the Torah.
If the article is saying (and I think it is, maybe I’m wrong) that women don’t really want to have children, they are only brainwashed by society to think they do, then I disagree. I believe that many women (not all) are born with an innate maternal instinct.
Sarah,
I see your point, and I can understand that from your point of view there may be mixed messages here, but don’t forget the crux of the article: the “delusion”. I think most women today, frum or secular, are duped into child-rearing because they are MADE to believe it’s the “right thing to do.” Their kids will “be different.” THEN they have kids and realize it’s not the bucolic, perfect life they had in common and then take it out on others. Sometimes, not always.
I really do get what you’re saying, especially the point you raised about Chasidish communities. For a woman not to have any children, ever, doesn’t seem to be an option. And no woman is ever prepared for the insanity that is child-rearing.