Who Are We?
A.M. Yehuda2011OpinionOff the Derech[Opinion]
A few years ago, I was at an atheist event. A prominent leader from an atheist group got up to speak, and with a raised fist and strident voice proclaimed: “We cannot just be a movement of broken people! We must evolve!”
His words evoked such fury in me, my eyes stung with tears of frustration. How dare he?! How dare he stigmatize those who had the courage to drag their broken bones away from the destructive forces of dogma and superstition to the calm shores of reason and rationality? How dare he disdain those broken people who, in the face of great adversity, discovered the primacy of intellect over mindless religious doctrines?
And by those, of course, I meant me.
My anger stayed with me for a long time. But things changed, I changed, I grew, my identity expanded, and the issue was no longer central in my mind. Then I read Samuel Katz’s excellent essay “The Self-Fulfilling Prophesy of the Ex-Hasid” which reminded me of my story at the atheist event, and illuminated a paradox that Sam begins to explore, which has been niggling at my brain since.
Who are we, us refugees from the Charedi world? Are we victims, broken people? Or are we wholesome assimilants to secular society?
If we call ourselves victims, then, as Sam discusses, we do ourselves a disservice. To identify as a victim is to constantly allow the abuser to re-abuse us in our psychological reality. It is to hold our own heads down in the waters of the past, to drown ourselves in memories of pain and trauma. To identify, as individuals and as a community, as victims, is to make ourselves so small that to grow to any size is an enormous achievement; we end up with expectations so low, they preclude most reasonable accomplishments. It is to reenact the horrors of “Genie”, a child whose parents kept her confined to a potty chair in a small room or in a sleeping bag inside a cage. After being rescued at the age of 13, she could no longer function or communicate like a normal person. She was stunted for life. It is an extreme metaphor, but I mean to make the point that a newly emergent ex-Charedi, can be as impressionable as a child, and if we confine that child-like adult to a small world of victimhood, we constrain her growth irreparably.
There is, therefore, a strong argument for ex-Charedim to identify as ordinary members of secular society, keeping the past in the past, as if the transition from the frum world to the secular one was merely one choice among the many we make in life. There is one small catch with this approach. If we are all wholesome assimilants to secular society, what the hell are we doing creating our own ex-frum community?
And I can’t deny that I enjoy the company of other ex-Charedim – and the feeling seems mutual. Can we ignore the truth that we derive comfort and joy from the camaraderie of those who share our cultural past? That there is enormous satisfaction, no matter how assimilated we are, in spending time with those who understand this essential piece of who we used to be, in a way that no-one else in our new world can? Are we supposed to deny ourselves each other’s company? Or are we supposed to pledge a vow not to speak of our past?
How do we solve this paradox? Can it be solved?
I believe it can. When the Jewish Enlightenment flourished in the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries, its passion and idealism marked one of the brightest periods in Jewish history. Its earliest flag-bearers came, like us, from worlds steeped in Orthodox traditions. They too must have had battle wounds to show and horror stories to swap. But they moved past the pain and the trauma of their early years to develop some of the most notable achievements of the modern Jewish world: the development of a philosophy and body of critical thought that led to varied but vibrant forms of engaging with faith and tradition; Zionism and the resurgence of Hebrew as a spoken language; and the emergence of art, literature, music, and theater that is as Jewish as it is secular. The Maskilim built a route to assimilation while engaging and celebrating their Jewish identities – on their own terms, with their own values. They were proud of the Jewishness and proud of their secularism.
I propose that the solution to the paradox of identity that we ex-charedim find ourselves in, is to establish — like the Maskilim of the past — a new, positive identity that is both proud of its secularism and proud of its Jewishness. And perhaps, proud too of its roots in the modern frum community, be it Chasidish, Yeshivish, Yekish, or anywhere in between. To not merely identify as ex something, rejectors of a past, survivors of a trauma, and equally, to not live in denial of our realities, insisting we are ordinary members of the secular world, although both these identities may be part of our makeup. I am advocating that we begin to identify as a group that stands for something. What do we stand for? What are our new identity’s foundational values? I look forward to exploring that with others. But for starters, ideas such as freedom, self-actualization and self-expression that call on our histories, honor our present and build what’s to come, could be could candidates.
In closing, I challenge us to move beyond dependence on those who hurt us, beyond instinctive counter-dependence that is just as predictable and weak a position, to a re-appropriated identity of power, that we form our own mosaic from the shards of our past and the frames of our future.
49 Responses
The site counted 50 responses; 49 survive in the archived copies.
Great article, very thought provoking. One idea that comes to mind, is to reinstate our shared values into the traditional religious dialogue. For example, Abraham, hailed as the founder of monotheistic religion & the original forefather of Judaism , was actually in historical context a rebel who battled the traditions of his time, all while living true to his creed (hospitality, warmth,& kindness). Why not re-appropriate the the mythological figure of Abraham, a man who would repudiate modern day orthodox Judaism, as an inspiration for the movement.
You might find that you are really in the majority, in the same comfortable place I’m in as a secular Jew. I don’t need the shulchan aruch, a handbook for obsessive compulsives, to tell me how to live. I don’t think gedolim have any practical sense of how the world works. I make my own decisions and act ethically and honestly without any halachah and hashkafa to tell me how to do this. While I do believe there is a God as a first cause, I don’t think he worries about whether I tear toilet paper on saturday. I’ve made it into my 70’s in comfort and without getting hit by lightening bolts.
Nice article. I am all about getting away from victim thinking and making meaning out of this sometimes meaningless life we spend on this planet.
Strange. None of the atheists I know think of themselves as “a movement of broken people”. They think of themselves as freed from superstition and ignorance.
[…] This post was mentioned on Twitter by Unholier Than Thou, Hasidic Rebel. Hasidic Rebel said: Thoughts on post-frum identity. http://fb.me/IdkkujFX […]
B”H
Uhuh…
Where are all those great maskilim today?
Their future generations totallly abandoned their jewishness.
It just doesn’t work.
You are a bunch of bums trying to live a life void of any many and responsibilities. Your excuses are just that; excuses. Proportionately, there are way more Jewish (secular) people seeking G-d than are the few lazy Haredy raised idiots running from it all.
Believing in a diety brings responsibilities. So denial of such is the easiest way out of it all.
Form all the smart asses that left religion behind I know not even one who became a success, or accepted in secular circles.
BTW you’re always welcome back (when you finally wake up…)
How about by starting to refer to “otd”‘s as on their own paths, instead of formulating it in the negative and according to “their” terminology and framework. By not referring to oneself according to the frame of the power structure that is trying to keep you within their fold, you might just free yourself in an empowering way.
Yechiel,
The legacy of the Maskilim is thriving today – Hebrew is a spoken language, Israel is alive and well, and secular Jewish culture is far more pervasive, powerful, productive and popular than religious Judaism ever was. All of these exist becuase of the Maskilim.
It’s important not to confuse correlation with causation. There probably are more Jewish people seeking God than leaving the Charedi community – but that doesn’t prove anything about God or Charedim. An alternate, highly plausible explanation is that so few people leave the Charedi community because they are bullied (ie the tone in your comment), threatened and coerced to stay, so very few people have the courage to leave.
Not believing in a deity brings more responsibilities than believing in a deity – suddenly every decision you make in life has to be made on your own, without the ability to run to a Rabbi for a decision, or a detailed code of life for answers. Acceptance of God is the easiest way out of coping with the complexity of life.
You don’t know any post-Charedim that are successful and accepted in secular circles because the frum community works very hard to (a) ensure that doesn’t happen by destroying those who try to leave (b) promulgate a narrative that all people who leave live awful, degenerate, unsuccessful lives. The more they say that, the more they frighten those thinking of leaving into staying.
You, it seems, are not one of us, so you can’t speak authoritatively on whether there are successes in our community. I am a former Charedi, and I can tell you, in my immediate circle of peers who have left, we have a doctor, a lawyer, and ivy league graduate, an award winning published author, a highly successful businessman, as well as many others leading less visible, but very content, healthy, successful lives.
If you’re thinking about leaving, know there are options for you. The people in the insane asylum do not know much about the sane world. It is far more exciting than they can ever tell you, and there are paths beyond the doors of the insanity to success, meaning and happiness beyond your wildest dreams.
AM
1) I said that I don’t know any post Haredim that are successful. I did not say it is non existent. Your response that there are few success stories is no proof that one can only succeed if he/she goes off the path. I can point to many professionals in our community. If you had said that we need to focus on people becoming more productive to society, I would have agreed.
2) I agree that one should be responsible for his/her own choices/actions in life. One needs not consult an authority of any sort, to decide for him what’s best for him. Make your own decision and take responsibility. However, denying G-d is non related to this matter. Au contrair; believing in G-d mandates more than just ‘menshlichkeit’ and good manners. It brings meaning into every action one does. It brings culpability to every negative choice one makes. Living a life devoid of spirituality is sometimes THE reason one commits a heinous crime. A true believer (I said true…) will never act recklessly even in weak moments.
3) Israel a thriving country? Maybe. Hebrew a spoken language? So what; so is Yiddish (dialect). Seculars popular? Being popular is not what’s important in life. Doing the right thing, however unpopular it may be, IS.
4) Hope is associated with belief… You (claim to) no longer believe so I guess you must be really miserable every time you are challenged with something you see no way out of. On the other hand I, as a believer do to the max of my abilities what I can. I then take out a Tehillim; say a few chapters; and hope.
AM
1) I said that I don’t know any post Haredim that are successful. I did not say it is non existent. The ones I know have yet to land. Your response that there are few success stories is no proof that one can only succeed if he/she goes off the path. I can point to many professionals within our community. Had you said that we need to focus on people becoming more productive to society, I would have agreed.
2) I agree that one should be responsible for his/her own choices/actions in life. One needs not consult an authority of any sort, to decide for him what’s best for him. Make your own decision and take responsibility. However, denying G-d is non related to this matter. Au contrair; believing in G-d mandates more than just ‘menshlichkeit’ and good manners. It brings meaning and responsibility into every action one does. It brings obligations. It brings culpability to every negative choice one makes. Living a life devoid of spirituality is sometimes THE reason one commits a heinous crime. A true believer (I said true…) will never act recklessly even in weak moments.
3) Israel a thriving country? Maybe… Hebrew a spoken language? So what; so is Yiddish (dialect). Seculars popular? Being popular is not what’s important in life. Doing the right thing, however unpopular it may be, IS.
4) Hope is associated with belief… You (claim to) no longer believe so I guess you must be really miserable every time you are challenged with something you see no way out of. On the other hand I, as a believer physically do to the maximum of my abilities to change that situation. I then take out a Tehillim; say a few chapters; and hope. My staunch belief is what keeps me relieved and sane.
5) Stop running! You have no destination you can call final. You are only running out of breath.
I wish you all the best.
Yechiel,
Having been a frum person, raised in the frum world, I understand your viewpoint. I used to be involved in kiruv and I said similar things to what you say here. I know how completely your identity is wrapped around your religion, and I know, that nothing I say in response to your comment, no matter how true it might be, will make any impression at all on your perspective.
So, I’m not going to respond to your comment.
I will only reiterate the truth that life on the outside can be overwhelming and debilitating for some, but for many of us, it is glorious, magical and beautiful.
In closing, I am posting Maya Angelou’s poem:
“I Know Why the Caged Bird Sings”
The free bird leaps
on the back of the wind
and floats downstream
till the current ends
and dips his wings
in the orange sun rays
and dares to claim the sky.
But a bird that stalks
down his narrow cage
can seldom see through
his bars of rage
his wings are clipped and
his feet are tied
so he opens his throat to sing.
The caged bird sings
with fearful trill
of the things unknown
but longed for still
and is tune is heard
on the distant hill
for the caged bird
sings of freedom
The free bird thinks of another breeze
an the trade winds soft through the sighing trees
and the fat worms waiting on a dawn-bright lawn
and he names the sky his own.
But a caged bird stands on the grave of dreams
his shadow shouts on a nightmare scream
his wings are clipped and his feet are tied
so he opens his throat to sing
The caged bird sings
with a fearful trill
of things unknown
but longed for still
and his tune is heard
on the distant hill
for the caged bird
sings of freedom.
A.M. & Yechiel: Fascinating exchange keep going!
Btw A.M., I think the very name of this site Unpious proves your point of an identity preoccupied the past and what you are not rather then where you are and where you want to go. I would suggest changing the name to something positive, revolutionary and forward looking.
*than*
AM
You say no matter what you say will have any influence on my beliefs. You know why that is? Not because I am totally unaware of the secular world and what it offers. No, I know exactly what it’s all about. Besides a few unimportant things to me there is nothing I can’t accomplish as a religious man. For you religion stood in the way. You felt like the bird in the cage… you probably couldn’t sing either…
I thank Hashem for giving me an open mind and not being narrow minded as some co-religionists. In spite of all that I still chose to follow the path I did. I lack nothing. I study whatever draws my heart to it. I do whatever makes me happy. I work for a living. I eat whatever food I like (kosher does not fall short nowadays). I tour the world while on work related visits. So please tell me what I as a religious man lacks.
I wish you all the best.
ישראל אף על פי שחטא ישראל הוא
Yechiel,
That is a fascinating admission you just made. You say the reason your beliefs will not be influenced by anything AM says is because “Besides a few unimportant things to me there is nothing I can’t accomplish as a religious man.” In other words, your beliefs are strong not because you have vetted and refuted all of the possible arguments against your beliefs, but rather because your are perfectly happy with those beliefs and you are not open to questioning them unless someone can first convince you that you would be happier without them. Ironically, you started this exchange by accusing those who don’t believe of making up excuses, but ended it by admitting that your own beliefs are just convenient excuses for your happy lifestyle.
You are entitled to your happiness and no one here wants to steal it from you. If you really want to keep your faith, then turn around and run with your tail between your legs. But if you really want to debate this, the place to start is by realizing that your love of chulent is not a rational argument for the truth of orthodox belief. Whether the torah is the work of a God or a mortal 9th century scribe doesn’t depend on how painful or pleasant it is to be frum.
“Their future generations totallly abandoned their jewishness. It just doesn’t work.”
I’d say it worked. Big-time. While many maskilim, both past and present, would prefer to maintain a Jewish identity in some form or other, even if devoid of religion, when given the option between Orthodoxy and total assimilation, many would choose the latter. Given the state of Judaism nowadays, in which Orthodoxy plays a minor part, I posit that “it just works”.
“Proportionately, there are way more Jewish (secular) people seeking G-d than are the few lazy Haredy raised idiots running from it all.”
Conveniently ignoring the ad-hominem parts I would request any valid proof to your argument. Sheer size of the secular community may make one think that the one’s with interest in Orthodoxy are “Proportionately” more than the other way around.
Even it were to be the case (and it may have been in the 70’s), the trend keeps pointing to the opposite direction. One thing to keep in mind is that of the 90% or more Jews that aren’t religious, 100% of them had frum ancestors just a very few generations ago. And these numbers don’t even include all those who have successfully assimilated and are no longer counted as Jews!
“Form all the smart asses that left religion behind I know not even one who became a success, or accepted in secular circles.”
Other than proving that you don’t know many ex-frumies, what else could you possibly have meant with this line?
“A true believer (I said true…)”
How familiar are you with the No true Scotsman fallacy? Or how familiar ‘were’ you? Before you just looked it up (again?).
“Seculars popular? Being popular is not what’s important in life. Doing the right thing, however unpopular it may be, IS.”
AM answered your maskilim’s legacy question. It would be nice for you acknowledge satisfaction with the answer before starting a new issue with popularity and what you find important. I should add that I would be the first to agree. Doing the right thing, however unpopular it may be is important.
How that is relevant to the argument (without agreeing on what the right thing is,) is beyond me.
“so I guess you must be really miserable every time you are challenged with something you see no way out of”
I can’t talk for AM, but my guess is as good as yours. Only, I can draw parallels to my own life, and can assure you that there has been no change in miserable-ness due to challenging situations.
True, at times it is harder to console oneself that God’s keeping count and that the perpetrator of my broken mirror hit and run will be punished somehow. My headaches aren’t counted anymore towards the heavenly payday. Neither does not finding stuff in the right pocket at first try assure me of points scored towards Judgment Day (anyone knows what I’m referring to? I can’t remember the Talmudic source). All of this may be inconveniences, but are far outweighed by the advantages of enlightenment. The tooth fairy too has its advantages that are outweighed by the advantages of adulthood. (Although, to be fair, many adults would rather still be children.)
“My staunch belief is what keeps me relieved and sane.”
I believe that you’re telling the truth here. I also believe that it strongly correlates with your desire to remain frum and unquestioning even in the face of overwhelming evidence to counter what you believe in.
I have found it to be the case, apparently, with most of the frum people I interact with. Always, but always, their argument revolves around the benefits ‘they’ see with keeping the faith. It is a strong argument, I’ll admit, but not to the validity of their claims. To the contrary, it shows why people insist in believing in Muhammad, Jesus, Joseph and the rest of ‘em, in light of absolute contradictions that aren’t hard to verify.
Being frum is pretty easy.
“So please tell me what I as a religious man lacks.”
Truth.
I lack nothing. I study whatever draws my heart to it. I do whatever makes me happy. I work for a living. I eat whatever food I like (kosher does not fall short nowadays). I tour the world while on work related visits. So please tell me what I as a religious man lacks.
Let’s assume you are a Cohen and your wife is raped by force, you have no choice but to divorce her no matter how much you may love each other having tiny kids etc. That is what God wants according to Halacha. (אשת כהן שנאנסה אסורה על בעלה ). Now your wife recognized the perpetrator goes to Bes-Din and gives clear testimony and still the abuser goes free because a women has no credibility according to Jewish law. Plus then you can only marry a 49 years old single because you are not allowed to take a divorcee.
Halacha can be inhuman and irrational at times.
In my humble opinion, there is a major difference between Jews who convert to atheism today and Jews who converted to atheism between about 1830 and 1930.
In the earlier era, the conversion was generally done in order to find a safer, more comfortable lifestyle. For example, running away from the Ukraine to work in the sweatshops of New York.
Today, those who leave mainly do so in order to lead a sexually promiscuous lifestyle which they hope will cover up their underlying depression.
In the earlier era, it was a mass movement for a practical purpose; now it is a small trickle of sex addicts.
I am a unicorn doctor. I treat the unicorns who hold frum people captive. I hear from the unicorns how they force people to abuse their children. They tell me how they torture rabbis until they agree to post stupid and cruel rulings. They admit to me that they make men degrade and abuse their wives. It is hard work for the unicorns. They get sick a lot, they come to me for treatment all of the time. This is how I know the frum community is how it is becuase of an evil band of unicorns.
It’s very good to meet you Jacob Stein. It is good to have a fellow delusional doctor so fluent in the language that descends from the ass. You are so good at analyzing and explaining why a group of people behave how they do. You must have the very best training in Sociology and Medicine. Perhaps you attended the famous school of SWSIMU(spouting whatever shit I make up)?
Are you coming to the convention of delusional doctors next month? The anti-UFO Anal Rape Activists are going to be presenting a cure to cancer (something to do with tinfoil I hear).
AM
You intentionally take my words out of context? I hope not.
I am merely responding to the air you left that Haredim are this that and the other. My beliefs are conclusions I drew not based on comfort… In ADDITION to that I lack nothing B”H. Your statements led me to believe that you believe that one can only be happy and successful if he leaves the Haredi society. To that I responded that that holds no ground. Many of you had difficulties in learning and have been force-fed Torah so you came to hate everything it stands for. Rather than learning enough and trying to discover its legitimacy you chose an easier path; deny it. The secular world is all to happy to ‘prove’ to you the fallacies of Torah. You have no belief system; you have convenience. Do I have questions? Absolutely! So I delve in to the deep and serene waters of talmud and look for answers. Didn’t find it today? I might get lucky tomorrow. In the interim I am enjoying my expedition and discoveries however unrelated to my mission it may be.
I know that my quest for truth is a lengthy process. I have plenty time…
The difference between us is this: you are seeking to negate and deny, I am seeking to establish. We each find answers to satisfy our agenda.
Velvel
לא חיישינן למיעוט שאינו מצוי
Get my drift?
Ben Shak
You win; I lose.
Now go on and be happy with your lifestyle.
I wish you all the best that life on this planet has to offer.
Mikeskeptic
My last post to AM was meant for you
Ben Shak
Just one question…
You claim that being frum is pretty easy. So why do some abandon it? Truth? Nah. If you knew some of the poor souls I know you would definitely agree. I am not saying that there are no intilligent people who drew conclusions based on ‘evidence’ presented to them. It looked OK to them so they followed suit… What I AM saying is that many do it for convenience.
I have not enough knowledge in Torah yet and have many years of study ahead of me. When I am done (?) and have yet to satisfy my quest for the truth I may consider examining the ‘evidence’ you worship…
Yechiel: “So why do some abandon it? Truth? Nah.”
Sound reasoning.
Hasidic Rebel:
(Sound) reasoning?
Perhaps for some. For others it is just a matter of breaking away from responsiblities. Just sheer convenience. The reference to halakha as ‘mindless/meaningles dogma’ is just nice phrasing to appease their conscience.
Seek the meaning of it all and ye shall find. Man up; Don’t run like a coward!
Yes, it takes great effort to examine all the evidence, but you ran before you were done. You ‘chose’ to ‘see’ the opposing ‘evidence’ which quite obvious takes less effort.
Yechiel: I guess my comment was unclear.
You asked a reasonable question (“why do some abandon it?”), then proposed a possible answer (“Truth”). You then immediately dismissed that answer with, “Nah,” as if that’s all one need to say on the subject. You provided no reasoning for your dismissal, which made it appear a knee-jerk and thoughtless comment. To which I responded sarcastically.
Capisce?
“Perhaps for some. For others it is just a matter of breaking away from responsiblities. “
Look — if you’re going to pass judgement on all who leave Orthodoxy based on a few individuals you happen to know, there isn’t much point to this discussion.
Your entire last comment is a jumble of thoughtless and prejudicial assumptions. You don’t ask questions to understand, you just fire off conclusions. To wit:
“The reference to halakha as ‘mindless/meaningles dogma’ is just nice phrasing to appease their conscience.”
What are you, a mind-reader?
“Seek the meaning of it all and ye shall find. Man up; Don’t run like a coward!”
What a load of meaningless drivel…
“Yes, it takes great effort to examine all the evidence, but you ran before you were done. You ‘chose’ to ’see’ the opposing ‘evidence’ which quite obvious takes less effort.”
And you know all this how?
Just to set you straight: I didn’t run before I was done. I crawled, all the way looking back to see, yet once more, if there isn’t another way to look at it.
And yes, it takes great effort to examine the evidence, and you, my friend, obviously haven’t even started.
Hasidic
Why all the anger? Did I touch a raw nerve?
I reiterate ‘some’ leave for convenience. They babble stuff they don’t yet grasp; just heard from this one and that one…
Those that left due to conclusions reached by covering all avenues, I respectfully disagree with their mathematical sum total possibly reached by faulty equations… However I commend them for their effort.
I mainly mock those who know next to nothing about anything yet speak so confidently/fluently in such matter.
Please don’t get all bent out of shape over my ‘naive’ comments. It’s not worth a heart attack.
Yechiel,
Some leave for convenience?
How about most STAY for convenience?
Hoezen
You ask how about most stay for convenience?
I reply: most never stop to think… so some of those few who gave their brain a little workout jumped to confusions found it pretty enticing to bail. Now they need to make peace with their inner guilt (hey, a jew is a jew…) so they babble rhetoric they are fed by other misfits or what they googled recently.
I will be honest and agree that some at least went out and got themselves established and they are happy where they are. Trouble is that nothing impeded those abilities from being honed whilst being religious. Nothing. Others are simple losers; they have nothing to show for their drastic changes other than their pain and agony. My heart goes out to those people.
I sign off with this: Searching for ‘evidence’ of G-d’s non existence is easier than searching for G-d. The latter requires a lifelong commitment to the cause.
Yechiel: First I’d like to commend you for your good comments and for holding your ground. I think it’s important to have such debates on this site.
I’d agree with your last one, God is not a being we can prove and only belief will do it, however Historical facts are something we can prove; if you look honestly at the evidence and you study archeology. What if one studied and came to conclusion the Jewish religion is man-made, the Torah is a human creation and there’s nothing more truth in Judaism then other religions? There’s no point in staying frum then, would you agree?
Velvel:
My friends will swear two things about me: 1) I am crazy (I can explain…) 2) I am not stupid. So, yes, I would agree to your last line if it can be proven 100% and beyond ANY doubt.
‘Historical facts’ were ‘discovered’ by humans based on X,Y,Z. X,Y,Z, is also limited to human interpretation of such. I agree that the individuals making these discoveries were extremely intelligent people. However, there is plenty room left to argue that perhaps science will evolve to a state that all previously assumed notions will become naught. After all, look to where we are up to now as in retrospect where science was in the dark ages; it HAS come a long way.
My points are geared towards those who were in and left. Those who denied G-d’s existence since ‘evolving’ to this planet I can understand their drive to prove themselves right. However, those who were in cannot say that they searched and examined ALL evidence and did not leave even a single rock unturned to conclude that their search for G-d was in vain. We know all to well that it is only human to want to follow an easier and less obstructed path which requires no commitment to anything.
If we can level let’s agree that I continue in my mission to prove G-d’s existence since I don’t think he wronged me… and you resent G-d for whatever wrong you believe he did to you. You just want to get him out of your system.
I wish you all א פרייליכן לעכטיגן שבת.
P.S. ש-בת ב-ו ת-שוב
Yechiel: Your friends might swear you’re not stupid. Of course, that might say more about your friends than it does about you.
Your points, such as they are, are mere regurgitations of hackneyed Orthodox mantras. They’ve been responded to repeatedly in hundreds of threads all over the web, which is perhaps why so few care to respond to you now, late as you are to the party.
Let me say only respond to the following few lines:
“… let’s agree that I continue in my mission to prove G-d’s existence…
You’ve attempted no such thing so far, but feel free to launch your own grand attempt at that which millions before you have proven unable…
“and you resent G-d for whatever wrong you believe he did to you. You just want to get him out of your system.”
Again with the mind-reading. You really ought to stop making assumptions about people you know nothing about. Especially if you want keep that reputation of being — what was it? — “not stupid.”
Hasidic:
I draw my ‘assumptions’ from the rebellious tone… Also, he fact that you are fussing over this matter leads me to the ‘assumption’ that you are still preoccupied with that ‘awful nonexistent being’ you can’t get out of your system. Why can’t you just let go?
I am late to the party? Well, duh; I am A Hasid… what can one expect. Not too bad however, there’s plenty left for me yet. I also get to take home all the leftovers…
You state a ‘fact’ that I have thus far not attempted to prove G-d’s existence. So YOU are a mind reader I guess. That I made no attempt on this blog to prove it? Well, this thread did not call for proof of anything. It’s just a venting station. You vent; I vent and we all feel accomplished when we hit the ‘submit comment’ button.
ברוך אתה י’ א’ מלך העולם פוקח עורים…
Just to quote a scientist:
“I cannot admit that, with regard to the origin of life, science neither affirms nor denies Creative Power. Science positively affirms Creative Power. It is not in dead matter that we live and move and have our being, but in the creating and directing Power which science compels us to accept as an article of belief.”
“…Creative Power is the only feasible answer to the origin of life from a scientific perspective.”
– Lord Kelvin (Sir Walter Williams)
The scientist you choose to support your views is astoundingly telling.
Lord Kelvin, the man you would like to uphold as the source of your credibility, lived in the 1800s. Hardly cutting-edge.
In addition to the brilliant,clearly scientifically sound statement you quote above, Kelvin is also responsible for such resounding truths as:
“There is nothing new to be discovered in physics now. All that remains is more and more precise measurement”
and
“No balloon and no aeroplane will ever be practically successful”.
Thank you Yechiel for so elegantly proving that it us unnecessary to mock religious fundamentalists, when they so graciously make utter fools of themselves.
Yechiel — Here’s a helpful suggestion (and I mean this with all sincerity): Read some material by scientists and philosophers who don’t agree with you, not only those quaint specimens who do. Try Bertrand Russell, Richard Dawkins, Daniel Dennett for starters.
Whether you’ll end up agreeing with them is beside the point; you’ll move past the tired and senseless frum-speak into intelligent discourse.
Dave:
I quote an individual who supports my belief that science is ever evolving. What is proven today is not a definite for tomorrow. Kelvin made concrete statements at his time and it is an absolute that he was mistaken. That is why I quoted him; for the contrast. Others erred but their miscalculations aren’t as obvious as this man’s.
His statement about G-d was just bait to draw you to search him on google so you’d see for yourselves. There are plenty more like him; not just a quaint few. There are also some whom’s studies are still accepted; they also believed in a higher being.
Yechiel, how’s the weather?
Baal Devarim
I just realized that my previous comment is somewhat difficult to understand. I hit the submit button before reviewing editing. My sincerest apologies…
And now to your inquiry about the weather:
We’ll, that depends; scientifically it’s…
Eh, never mind; for the sake of sanity let’s skip this one.
BTW you’re name is in NEXT week’s Parsha; you’re a little early…
For now,
לאו את בעל דברים דידי את
Baal Devarim
I just realized that my previous comment is somewhat difficult to decipher. I hit the submit button before reviewing and editing. My sincerest apologies…
And now to your inquiry about the weather:
We’ll, that depends; scientifically it’s…
Eh, never mind; for the sake of sanity let’s skip this one.
BTW you’re name is in NEXT week’s Parsha; you’re a little early…
Also please note: לאו את בעל דברים דידי את…
Scribled on a wall in tsfas
GOD IS DEAD
Nietzsche
Under that some wag responded
Nietzsche is dead
GOD
Serdaheler Ruv (shlit”a)
Did you know that he died a young man? Perhaps had he lived longer he may have changed his mind… or I can speculate that he had indeed found G-d and couldn’t live with himself; so he asked G-d to take him away…
Just sayin’
I’m having more fun than a human being should be allowed to have
serdaheler ruv,
They’re BOTH dead.
Me
I, for one, left religion because I’m allergic to Tipshim like this Yechiel. But feel free to psychoanalyze me from a distance and ascribe my motives to whatever reactionary emotions you please.
As far as the identity question goes, I will have to prepare a longer response than time will now permit.
Levi Keller:
You left religion because of tipshim like yourself…
Psychoanalyze yourself from up close… you’ll be surprised at what you may discover.
Serdaheler:
We are making progress… Death is the aftermath of life. So it seems that you believe that at some point G-d did exist. When did He seize too exist? And while I’m at it; where were you that night?… I have reason to suspect that you had something to do with it…
Gosh. I can understand why so many of my peers would read, be entertained, and laugh to themselves about how they’ve had this debate a million times before with people like you yechial and with themselves too, instead of answering you on a one by one basis.
So am I. I’m tired of the assumptions and conclusions people like you draw on anyone daring to leave the comfy community mindset you grew up with.
But tell me, how does it escape your notice that we all struggled for years with these ideas before ever actually daring to act upon any of it? How do u wipe away all the sweat, heartbreak, and pain we had to go through in order to come out? How do you explain the years and years of us living like totally faithful jews even after our minds told us of its meaningless stupidity? Ah. What people won’t give up to be sex addicts.
If you would only take the time to actually know the subject we each had to research for years, trying to find a way out of our intellect and conclusions, if you would only know the people and hero’s who you stamp and preconceive about, maybe, just maybe, you’d actually have a decent and respectful debate about the matter without prejudicing.
I wish you good luck in your life long quest on finding the answers in a pre-victorian era book. You will need a VERY long one, so we will continue building airplanes and LCD TV’s with our stupid scientific theories meanwhile, devising schemes for heart transplants and laser surgeries so that you can do it in health and luxury. Thank you very much.
Shauly
I do not know the numbers, but dare I say that many a brilliant scientist concluded that a diety exists indefinitely.
Flying machines and plasma TVs? Absolute scientific brilliance! How about the human being though? How about the scientist’s brains? Why are you not wowed by its complexities? Other than theories on its characteristics it is stil impossible for any scientist to create (not replicate) something even remotely close to it.
There were always people who denied G-d’s existence. It is a matter of convenience to say ‘if my human mind can’t grasp it then it doesn’t exist’. Substantiating G-d brings way too many ‘challenges’…
Heroes? Nah. Sweat; heartbreak; pain to leave? It does not go unnoticed.
Shauly
I do not know the numbers, but dare I say that many a brilliant scientist concluded that a diety exists indefinitely.
Flying machines and plasma TVs? Absolute scientific brilliance! How about the human being though? How about the scientist’s brains? Why are you not wowed by its complexities? Other than theories on its characteristics it is stil impossible for any scientist to create (not replicate) something even remotely close to it.
There were always people who denied G-d’s existence. It is a matter of convenience to say ‘if my human mind can’t grasp it then it doesn’t exist’. More so when one has ‘evidence’ to ‘prove’ his ‘beliefs’. Substantiating G-d brings way too many ‘challenges’…
Heroes? Nah. Sweat, heartbreak and pain to leave? It does not go unnoticed. However, Aristotle put it very well: To run away from trouble is a form of cowardice and, while it is true that the suicide braves death, he does it not for some noble object but to escape some ill…
You sound intilligent enough to get my drift.