It’s All Kosher (No. 1): Trapped in New Square

Reading is helpful but it’s a socially isolated activity. For someone who lives in New Square, it would be helpful if she could meet a variety of people who left, both so she could get a better sense if what it will be like if she choses to leave and for support. Nor will communicating on the Internet replace actual human interaction. The writer might want to consider contacting footsteps at http://www.footstepsorg.org

my dillema: i wanna help but my fear of being hurt by zealots scare me. I reccomend footsteps too for there u will meet lots of ppl and support. As far as parents are concerned, its u who needs to take care of urself regardless. its them who are creating their own pain by being stuck in a world that barely breaths. i wish u luck.

I truly wish there had been a place such as Footsteps back in the day when I had made the decision to leave. I highly recommend finding that outlet for gaining your freedom. Knowledge is key so find that library, read many books, research on the net.

I wish you and all those others out there much luck!

Dear Desperate To Leave,
In my humble opinion, the real question is not how can I leave, rather it should be why leave? As Unpious Posek correctly noted, “Leaving is an intellectual journey, more than a physical one. To leave, you need to expand your horizons.”. A common theme echoed across the charedi community, is the conceptualization of matters into two shades, black and white, creating dichotomus thinking patterns amongst its members. Matters are portrayed as either evil or pious, pure or impure, modest or provocative, etc. As a result, one often finds individuals existing on oppossite poles of the community’s spectrum. On the one hand there are individuals who with zealousness blindly adhere to all that they have been taught to value, while on the other hand one can find those who have cast aside all that they have been taught to cherish and have embraced all that they have been taught to shun. However, reality is rarely reflected in shades of black and white. Reality is often grey. Reality is often colorful. Feeling trapped in any situation will often lead to adopting a distorted all or nothing view of both your community and ‘the outside world’. While acknowliding it at the present may be tough, in reality, along with the negativity there are many positive aspects that the charedi community has to offer. Simultaneously, while living a ‘liberated lifestyle’ has a lot to offer, there is a lot of ugliness on the outside as well. My advice to you is, don’t throw the baby out with the bath water. Find someone who you can talk to, a mentor, a therapist, etc., and carve out your own existince within your community. Embrace the best of both worlds. Best of luck to you on your journey!!!

There may be a catch to that advice. The more one learns about the outside world and the more one expands one’s intellectual horizons, the less tolerable life that community becomes

If you yearn for freedom you will never be happy where you are. Of course, there’s no guarantee you’ll be happy anywhere else, but it will be the life you chose, not the one you were dealt.

People will tell you to read and read and read to decide whether it’s what you logically should want. “It’s an intellectual journey,” they’ll say, “Don’t give up what you have until you’re absolutely sure you’ll be trading up.”

This advice though generally well-meant is dishonest. What they are trying to do is make the decision for you. Wait. Delay. Analyze forever. Put it off until your commitment fades and someone or something convinces you to stay. It comes from a deep connection to the world you want to leave. They have absolute faith that nothing could be better. It is of the heart, not the head. It is a matter of essence which cannot be proved because it is beyond proof.

You already know what your heart wants. Now you need to use your head to decide how to achieve it. People have succeeded with much less than you have going for you. You’re obviously young, articulate, intelligent and know your own mind which makes many things possible.

Gather your resources. Have a plan for supporting yourself or gaining the skills to support yourself. Be open to things that will help you achieve your goal, but not ones which compromise your deeply held values. Your deeply held values, not the ones you have been told you must hold.

Welcome any support your friends and family may give, but be prepared for rejection. It is their job to coerce you into obedience even if it is with the most loving motives. The promise of love and the threat of its withdrawal are a terribly powerful combination. But remember, no matter what your religion says about sitting shiva and all the rest, they are your parents. A parent’s love should be unconditional, not a reward. If you lose it because you were true to yourself you never had it to begin with.

Above all, make your break before they decide to marry you off. However hard it is to make your own life it will be ten times harder with a husband who is comfortable in his chosen lifestyle, a hundred times harder if you have children and a thousand times worse if he divorces you and uses custody to club you into submission. You know people who have left strict insular communities. How many of them have had contact with their children cut off?

Some have mentioned Footsteps. They have dealt with situations like yours many times. Benefit from their experience.

Good luck.

God bless.

Once you’ve tasted freedom you will never submit to chains again.

athiest writes:
my dillema: i wanna help but my fear of being hurt by zealots scare me.

If that’s a real concern do not walk away from New Square and the people who live in it.

Run as if your life depended on it. Given things that have happened there recently like attempted mass murder of sleeping families it very well may.

i understand where you are coming from .
Todd said: “You already know what your heart wants. Now you need to use your head to decide how to achieve it.”
I think he is so right. This is not, in my opinion, an intellectual dillema as much as it is an emotional conclusion that this life doesnt work for you and you need to find a way to make yourself happy.
Dont think that you will figure out the answers somehow, because who says there are answers, who says there is only one answer, and who says they will satisfy you.
Most important, be brave and express yourself to say to those who are most important to you, like your parents, what you want/ or at least, what you dont want. Dont let them marry you off just like that. Give yourself time to explore and grow up before you are thrown into a prearranged marriage, even if it seems suitable. Please tell your parents, as much as you need and as little as you can, so they will know you are different, without telling them all your ideas that will seem crazy to them. Get a therapist who will help you learn how to express yourself without burning bridges.
i wish you good luch in your journey, life can get better! Dont throw everything you have away, but take careful steps towards your hearts desires and remember that happiness is in the state of mind (and in the country that speaks your language)
I dont mean to lecture here, but I’m talking from my own experience.

I’m sorry but even though this sounds serious the way people think of it as ‘leaving’ is a little bizarre or ridiculous. This is a spiritual and personal journey of every human being through a mess of beliefs held to be true the world over.

But I have also lived in that community and have had my experiences. While I was very sick and desperately needed to free my self and mindset from it, I was not able to for a very long time until I met the most wonderful people who still had a ‘spiritual connection’ but were open-minded, caring and happy unlike the rest of the ultra-fum community I suffered my whole life with.

Practically speaking, while the journey of life is ahead there are some issues to deal with. Supporting yourself is a reality and you should always think of how to be able to learn skills that will allow you to find a career that might even be fulfilling in itself. As others have written a marriage commitment could be overwhelming and terribly wrong if you’re not ready. Avoid as much as you think you can!

But while I have been through a nightmare I still value everything for what it is. We are not criminals or terrorists, violence is extremely rare(even with the recent tragic incidents) and lets not all get carried away. Just hopefully not to go through hell from everyone making you crazy.

marty

Just another person’s moving personal experience: http://frumgirlgonesouth.blogspot.com/2011/04/start.html

FGGS, boy do I hear you. We had nothing like that when I left. I did it alone. I wish I’d know you.

My deepest sympathies and best wishes to this young woman.

I was once in the same predicament myself and though I have managed to extricate myself from the Chassidic cult, I still have to deal with plenty of negative repercussions.

The string of broken souls these communities leave in their wake is just heartbreaking. I think the Chassidic community is poisonous. It breeds retarded, hypocritical, ignorant, dysfunctional, intolerant people who do not know or care to nurture their children(this applies to most haredim-not just Chassidim [some would say that this applies to all religions in general]). I have tremendous pity for the them at best and utter contempt for them at worst.

I have no interest in this imposed religion that enslaves the spirit and mind, that fills a person with fear, guilt, hate, and self-loathing. I want no part in it. I want to raise my children to be completely free and be able to think for themselves. I see Judaism as a cultural thing. I don’t glorify Jewish history and I don’t believe in biblical or talmudic fairy tales.

I am sure, my dear, that you will find the respite and peace that you are looking for and others robbed you of.

Hi!! Well, I’m not good at writing. But I coincidently read this blog so I decided to give my 2 sence. I’m a pretty much happy boro park boy. I have no urge to leave the community. Yes, I do understand that new square is a bit more locked up community but leaving will not bring that much happiness I could only make worse in the long run. I could say from my own experience. Yes, at times I feel that my parents don’t understand me and people in the community look at me different but as I thi k in to it, what will I gain by leaving what will I have by going against from the way I was brought up. But at the end if the day who are the people that love you and care for you the most, that’s family, community. If I leave I won’t have that any more. By witch religion do you see chased most that’s only by Jewish community aspecially by heimish chasidish community’s. Anyway I’m writing already too long. My point is. Leaving dosent help you in the long run maybe for a short term where you’ll feel free for a while. So the solution for tuis young girl in my opinion is, stay where you are and try to fix it to the way you want it. Talk with your parents, be open with them, tell them what you feel, usually they will understand you. And especially when you’re at such a age where you’re probably in shiduchim just get married and lead a life the way you want like a normal Jewish family.im not judging anybody. I’m just saying how I feel. I know pretty much what’s goin on on this world I read alot I’m opened to today’s world and I feel that this is the right way.

But of course “don’t do it!, it will hurt your shidduch!”.

My dear former “landsman” (I lived in BP myself for 2 decades), nobody should be forced to live a life that they don’t want to live. I know what that’s like, I lived that type of tortured existence for too many years.

Certainly, she should try to reason with her parents, but I hate to say it, the vast majority of Chassidic parents I know, are unfortunately unreasonable and not very forthcoming. This is mostly a result of ignorance and sheer faith borne out of religious fervor.(I know mine were/are, as much as I love them).

HJb, let’s translate that into English:

I’m happy. If you do exactly what makes me happy you will be happy, too. Freedom will make you unhappy. Sit down. Shut up. Start cranking out babies before you’re old enough to buy a drink. Give up any dreams you had of education, a real career, or your own life. Obey. Obey. Obey. And have the kind of life you want as long as it’s exactly what I think you should do

What an unutterable crock of untreated effluent.

Hear, hear..

Couldn’t have said it better.

[…] A young woman asks, “How do I leave New Square?” (Unpious) […]

Dear Posek – solid advice to a desperate soul.

There’s one thing I think you’re missing though. This poor soul, if she doesn’t come out to her parents soon, will end up getting married off to some schmo, pregnant soon after, a child or two within two years, and there’s your virtual prison. Good luck breaking out of that one!

While she’s working on educating herself, she needs to figure out a way to push off marriage, or else she might miss her (only) opportunity.

She’s 18 and legally an adult. With some guidance and help from good souls (such as FOOTSTEPS) she can get a part time job, new friends, an education and an apartment.

I hope she takes the initiative and makes that bold move. Remember, DTL, beginnings will be difficult but you will never forgive yourself for not doing it. We’re all rooting for you.

Dear Desperate,
Assuming that you are indeed an 18-year-old typical New Square girl there are a few things you have to consider.

First, are you a typical New Square girl? Some commentators suggested that you go to footsteps. It is a great organization and they could help you tremendously, however if you are a typical New Square girl you probably won’t have a way to get to footsteps, certainly not consistently. Sure, you can take the bus into New York City, but chances are that your parents won’t let you go into the city by yourself. On the other hand, if your parents know that you are somewhat ‘off’ (perhaps you dress a little differently than most skvere girls) they might, in the best-case scenario, let you go as a kiruv measure if you can come up with a plausible lie.

The second question is whether you are alone in this. I mean, you are certainly not alone in this predicament, there many chasidshe people in the same exact situation you are in, but the question is whether you know other girls in New Square that are in the same situation. If so, can you trust them? It would be a lot easier for you if you have someone with you can do it together. (For instance, your mom would be a lot more trusting if you tell her that you are going shopping in borough park with ruchy).

You have to consider you shidduch situation. Do you have older brothers and/or sisters? If not would you be able to say no coming out of a b’show? Chassidishe parents usually don’t seek a shidduch for their kids, they look for someone whose family will be a match for their self-appraised social standings. They will pressure you to go meet the bochur in question with arguments like “you can’t judge a person before you talk to him” and “you can always say no”. But when you will go to the b’show that will already bake cakes and tell the immediate family that it will be “biem rebbin” tonight. The pressure will be immense. If you don’t think that you could withstand that you have to leave immediately, as Todd said, “Run like your life depends on it” because it really does. However if you are either strong enough to stand up for yourself or if you are for whatever reason not in a danger of being married off it might be better for you to find yourself first, and plan ahead.

How is your financial situation? Do you have some savings? If you do, do you have access to it or did your father take it for ‘safe’ keeping? If you do have a job, you should know that right after you leave there will be many chasidishe people offering help but only as long they think they could bring you back. The instant they would realize that you are not coming back they will cut you off. If your employer is chasidish, you WILL lose your job, so you would have to find a new mode of subsistence.

You should give a lot of thought on what is it that you want to accomplish? Not just by leaving but what do you want to do with your life? What would make you proud of yourself? Let’s say you want to educate yourself, you want to go to college you might still need to get a GED, as most chasidishe schools’ diploma is not worth the paper it was written on, and I would assume that the Skvere School is among the majority. You probably can get books from the library to help you prepare for the exam. You parents might not be alarmed if you go to a library as girls in the chasidic communities generally get a longer rope than boys do although it’s usually easier for boys to break to rules since they have more readily access to discreet transportation (I assume that there isn’t any girls in New Square who have cars). The fact is that the community colleges near chasidic neighborhoods are filled with chasidishe women and girls, perhaps you could go with the (reluctant) approval of you parents. (I don’t knows of that’s feasible in new Square.)

Another question to be considered very carefully is whether your family suspects that you might run. If they do what are they going to do about it? How will you counter that? I don’t know all their strategies, but you can bet they will play the emotional card. Your mother will cry “דו פירסט מיר און טאטי אריין אין קבר יונגערהייט” they will blame you for their embarrassment. Your Jewish guilt might kick in, but you have to stay strong and KNOW that you are doing the right thing, for your sake and for your offspring’s sake (if you choose to have any).

It is very easy to ruin your life. In every chasidishe neighborhood, there are places where outcasts hang out. These places are in general not based on intellectual discourse to say the least. There is a lot of drugs and fooling around in these social circles. They tend to be very accepting especially of girls (at least if your looks is above three standard deviations below the mean…). It’s very easy to be dragged down. You have to be very careful not to get involved with them. I don’t know if it’s true or not but I have heard that last year a skvere girl ran off with a Hispanic janitor. My point is that it’s easy to get involved with potheads and other questionable characters but you have to be smart not to ruin your life. You have to control your urge to escape so it doesn’t lead you to do something very regrettable.

At the same time, there are intellectual communities and quasi-communities, which are also very accepting regardless of your age and gender. You should try to find them, either in person if possible or online (there are great people here on unpious and other bloggers who could offer you wisdom and advice). Don’t think it will be all glamorous, it won’t. You will struggle for years, times will be tough, and there is no guaranty that you will ever find happiness. But if you keep your goal on front of you and you work hard there is a good chance that you will get to the point to which you are striving to reach.

If you decide to go to college, please don’t limit yourself. The most common professions chasidishe women choose is nursing and physical therapy (guys usually go for accounting). If you want to do that that’s fine, but don’t think that this is all you can do. The world is wide open for you; you are young, bright, and courageous. Don’t be afraid satisfy you curiosity; don’t be afraid to think big. There have been many great success stories of people who left, and there will be many more. Be one of them.

Shmerel, this is amazing, that you took the time to lay it all out. Yasher koach to you. I left at this young writer’s age too. I have lots to offer but some time constraints. I’ll add to this in a few days. Stay tuned…

“Your mother will cry “דו פירסט מיר און טאטי אריין אין קבר יונגערהייט”

Uh, oh. You’ve touched a nerve. How about, “You will bring on another Holocaust?” How’s that for playing the guilt card? And yes, I’m the one who wears the shmate in Williamsburg. We’re talking fast forward now years later. The latest ploy is that I had no business going to shul to say Yizkor since there is hair under that shmate and how my father will just roll in his grave. I assured my mother that is not the case. Don’t want to bring up the sensitive subject that father was a little more reasonable.

And here I thought God does not require human sacrifices..

There is no reason that anyone should sacrifice their life to make their parents happy. Your life is your own, and if you don’t want to live a lie or a double life, you have every right to strike out on your own. But of course you are young, and vulnerable, therefore shmerel’s advice would be well taken. Seek assistance, do what you can while you are still living in the community, draw up a ‘battle plan’ and slowly develop contacts with people who can help you advance in life.

“It is very easy to ruin your life. In every chasidishe neighborhood, there are places where outcasts hang out. These places are in general not based on intellectual discourse to say the least. There is a lot of drugs and fooling around in these social circles. They tend to be very accepting especially of girls (at least if your looks is above three standard deviations below the mean…). It’s very easy to be dragged down. You have to be very careful not to get involved with them. I don’t know if it’s true or not but I have heard that last year a skvere girl ran off with a Hispanic janitor. My point is that it’s easy to get involved with potheads and other questionable characters but you have to be smart not to ruin your life. You have to control your urge to escape so it doesn’t lead you to do something very regrettable.”

This is one of your best pieces of advice, Shmerel. It’s not worth leaving the Chassidic world for this. Steer clear of this ruin, run from it, as far as you can. Luckily, this did not exist when I was got out. I was purely focused on college and a career and I’m proud to say I did both. I guess I’m one of your success stories! Just to prove, you CAN do it. It’s hard, it’s rough, but it’s possible. I did it and so can you.

I got out, I crafted a life. I met and married a smart, kind, funny, ethical and yes Jewish man. I have a child. I have a career. I am very active in a Conservative synagogue. I have a good life. Give or take. You can do it.

Thanks J., but I hardly took the time to write a complete do and don’t list, I just wrote a few things as they came to my mind. As it’s evident of the disorganization of my first comment. Somebody ought to publish a comprehensive guide of how to escape the chasidic community and culture, and live happily ever after. Perhaps it could be done as a group project by unpious writers and staff, and be made available online to give the many young lost souls a head start into their future.

I want to clarify that I don’t pass judgment on the individuals who do hang out with the local outcasts. I do not think that the fact that someone hang around is an indictment of the character of that person, but collectively they don’t form a social circle that is highly desirable for אן ערליכע יידישע טאכטער

Shmerel, rest assured I didn’t think you were casting aspersions on those kids who fall into the wrong circles. These young people need support, not more vilification. I wouldn’t lambaste a young relative who might choose to become a pothead. But I’d offer kind and gentle advice to run from those groups. They will ruin your life.

I agree about the comprehensive guide. But I’m still glad you touched on the outcasts and potheads. If I were counseling a young person who’d fallen into that group, I wouldn’t sound shrill or harsh. You don’t want to mirror what these people are running from. My concern is that these kids have a direction, viable alternatives, which you outlined so well. At best, outcast groups are a waste of time, derailing goals. At worst they are dangerous. A young woman can wind up pregnant, in prison or dead. I think it’s pretty serious.

Perhaps learning some of Rav Kook’s illuminated Torah can help you free yourself from the bondage of this enslavement.

“Let everyone express in faithfulness and truth whatever their soul reveals to them, let everyone bring forth their spiritual creativity from potentiality to actuality without any deception. Out of such sparks torches of light will be assembled and they will illuminate the whole world out of their glory. Out of such fragments of inner truth, will the great truth emerge.” (Oorot HaKodesh, 1:166)

Rabbi Kook, although, in my opinion, misguided (as I think most religious people are) to his credit, treated the young Jewish pioneers, (most of whom were secular Jews from observant backgrounds) of his time with respect, unlike most of his fanatic haredi contemporaries.

Simple really.
Get married first to a boy like yourself and then work together to leave.

to Shmuel about Rav Kook- most of us including myself are not on the level to declare Rav Kook misguided. I imagine you are not on that level either. If you read about him deeply, you’ll understand why I say that.

You should slowly hint your perents that you’re not like they think. Try dressing more cool & sexy, let them know that you’re going with friends to malls &… so they won’t pair u up with a naive guy. Be smart, keep yourself busy.

“you can even drag a friend or two to do see the skeletons of species millions of years older than their Torah”…
liten, i’m not from a closed minded culter, i grew up in a warm frum & normal community out of town, but that statement is NOT cool!!!
shame on you “The Unpious Posek”

Itzchak, though I admire rabbi Kook and consider him a brilliant man, I take strong issue with some of his ideas, particularly his penchant for Kabbalah. For whatever it’s worth, that’s just my opinion.

I am a proud secular Zionist who believes in a strong and secure Israel with a Jewish majority. My reasons are not religion-based (like R’ Kook), but rather national and ethnic. Sadly, i think religion has served to poison the atmosphere, what Israel needs more of is rationalism, humanism, and enlightenment.

Actually you might find interesting reading about his meeting with Einstein in 1925 in Israel. Einstein came out saying this is one of the few people he met to date that understands the theory of relativity. And Rav Kook spoke to him about a source in an obscure book of Kabbala that described hechalot-chambers of experience in which time was experienced differently. I’m not sure what you’re antipathy to Kabbala is about but it says more about you than Rav Kook.
blessings from Jerusalem

As someone who has studied history, I noticed that Kabbalah has too often been abused and is still be being abused by charismatic charlatans to advance their own selfish needs.

Blessings from Jerusalem as well.

It’s also provided and providing extraordinary illumination and perspective from a very deep and broad understanding of the underlying and unseen.

We’ll have to agree to disagree there.

Hello, I’ve read your question and the answer of the ‘Posek’, as well as some of the reactions in the blog.
I understand you want to leave if you were brought up in a close-minded community where nothing is allowed, and where, if you behave or do things different than what’s ‘accepted’, you’re ‘in trouble’. That’s totally not the way that the Torah is telling us Jews to behave, and it’s a big big shame, I’d even call it a tragedy, that stupid people think that this way of life is ‘Yiddishkeit’ and don’t understand that this is totally NOT the will of Hashem and only brings to problems. (like plenty of people like you who want to go totally off the way because they feel choaking from the ‘Torah-way’ they were brought up with, which is in fact absolutely not the real Torah-way!!! In stead of being proud of being Jewish and being happy of the beautiful life-way the Torah REALLY has to offer!)
What I don’t understand is – why do people who grew up in such a closed community (like you for example) want to go to the other extreme? I myself was brought up in a normal beis yakov-chassidish environment, my parents gave us a chinuch to the normal Torah-way – Jewish values, intellectuality (yes, that’s what the Torah really wants!! It sais in so many places that a Yid should study chochmat gojim and become intellectual! And leider, today, in communities like the one you were brought up in, people think that ‘mehr tipesh = mehr yiddish’ that’s a big big mistake!!), etc. My parents sent me to college after school, coz they wanted me to study. If my father sees me without make-up, he will ask me why I go like this, he thinks every Jewish girl has to look good, etc. But – everything withing the boundary’s of TORAH!! (Not the boundary’s of the closed communities) You can be dressed nicely and look ok, yet not sexy. You can look attractive yet not over-attracting. You can be dressed really nicely but betsnius. I don’t understand why people who think their upbringing was too extreme, have to go wear jeans, sleeveless T-shirts, decolleté’s, etc. Do they really think it will make them being more happy?? I work in a bank with non-Jewish people, I have a great friendship with them, when all the colleagues go out, I join. If they want to go to a Jewish restaurant, then I can take a meal. When they decide to go to a café or non-kosher restaurant, I just take a drink. They know that I’m religious and that I have a different lifestyle then them and they respect me very much for what I am. I go on vacations and touring to explore and see the world I live in. I’m dressed according to the fashion.
I feel totally free, never had any feeling that my life is bad or that I’m missing something. The Torah offers such a good lifestyle, with so many possibilities, there’s just a few little things you have to do, big deal…!
I have the impression that people like you who were brought up in a ‘choaking’ community, forget that there is a long long grey area between ‘extremely farfrimt’ and ‘fraaj’. And – as one who works with people who went off the way and then had charoete and returned and became ‘open-minded frum people’ – I can tell you that there’s plenty of things that you can’t think of when you’re frum and want to change to the other extreme. There’s a lot of pain in this world as well. The Torah wants us to live a ‘shvil hazahav’-life. The extreme life you were brought up is not the Torah-way. MY ADVICE TO YOU IS – GO LOOK FOR ‘OPEN-MINDED FRUM YIDEN’ AND TRY TO LEARN FROM THEM WHAT TORAH-LIFE IS REALLY ALL ABOUT! Hashem didn’t give us the Torah so we should be feeling choaking – he wants us to study, enjoy life, etc, just asks us some little things in order we shouldn’t fall into the pain-situations to which a secular life might bring. (and as I told you – I work with non-jewish people, and I hear their stories… they are often jealous when they hear me telling of our peacefull life!! Tafe for example the injen of giloej arojos – why do you think that things are forbidden? Look around in the world – divorces, husbands/wifes misleading each other by sleeping with other people and afterwards leave their partner and kids and go their new boy-/girlfriend, the kids grow up in a unhappy life with one parent only, etc… all this misery the Torah tries to avoid, did you never think Hashem asked us to be carefull about these things for our own sake??)
So… I again beg you – please go check the beautiful grey area, the REAL Torah-way, which only brings to a great happy and enjoyable life!!
– Kathy

Kathy,

I personally think this woman should consider all options, including the ones you put forth. But in response to your question as to “why” many people reject orthodoxy entirely, I am always astounded to hear frum people ask this question when in reality they are extremely condescending and unaccepting of ex-chassidim. Ex-chassidim who try to settle into more moderate frum communities are made to feel like unwelcome outcasts, they are not accepted to any of their schools and they are judged for their past. Why subject yourself to that?

“Simple really.
Get married first to a boy like yourself and then work together to leave.”

Actually, that’s a great idea, maybe if you joined Footsteps you would find a fake-odox guy and you guys could leave together or live fake-odoxly together. It’s actually easier for a woman to be fake. All you have to do is wear the right clothes and not change your status on FB over Shabbos or yontiff…

“Simple really. Get married first to a boy like yourself…”
“Actually, that’s a great idea…”

I too like the idea allot; so much that I even attempted a variation of it. But, that qualifying ‘variation’ is the key to why this “great idea” is really not “simple” at all.

True, joining a group of like minded people, lightens any burden exponentially; but, saying that this will ease the finding of a marriage partner, and that this makes it “Simple really”, really really minimizes a human’s search for a loving marriage partner. To believe that just because a certain pool of human beings share this one aspect of deep aversion to living this specific life-style, they’re therefore likely to find seriously suitable love/life partners, ignores the majority of vastly varying personalities and character traits even amongst the disenchanted, ambiguous, and righteously indignant to ultra-Orthodoxy. It is IMHO, and experience, wrong. It actually reminds me somewhat of “shadchan philosophy”: Because Mr. _ and Ms. _ have _ in common, it is likely that _&_ can live happily ever after.

Of course the shadchan approach has much bigger problems; however, this advice bears a striking similarity to it.

Am I the only one who thinks ‘Kathy’ is some guy sitting in Boro Park basement doing his best, in light of his take on things, to help Ms. Desperate?

I for one am wondering if Ms. desperate in New Square is reading these comments and if we can expect any response from her end.

And I for one am wondering if there is a “Desperate in New Square” to begin with, or she is the mere creation of the Unpious Posek?

Nu!?, and what if Desperate T Leave is a composite character composed of the numerous cases found in the SHuT TUPP [שו”ת האפּ”פּ]? To quote the Talmudic adage, “What? You want the master to go round n round like a peddler announcing every detail listed on his inventory?!

Dear desperate
im a 17 year old Boy in new square, i think i could
just copy And
paste ur quastion, cuz im in the same situation as u,
but im suffering
even more cuz im a boy. I think i understand u the
best, cuz i
understand my self.
I wanna tell u a bit about me, im not a low life no
drugs and so, im
not from the group that could ruin ur life, as ppl
wrote, i have
nothing with them, i dont have a car, as some1 wrote
that boys could
have. no1 even knows that im not the typical skvere
bucher.
So thats wat im not and wat i am is, im a smart boy
looking 2 have a
happy normal life.
So why r u faking?? Ill tell u why, thats bcuz if they
will know that
i wanna leave theyll block me, and also there is so
much pain in this
lifestyle, sometimes pain could get over logic, so
there4 im trying 2
set my plans in a logistic way not according 2
emotions, so i wont
regret, i dont have yet a good enough plan thats why
im still doing
it, but as long it stays secret im doing wat i want.
Now i dont know how u r, if they know wat u want, or
ur still like a
“normal” girl, but if yeah my advice 2 u is, dont take
any open action
that could get a suspician on u, until u have an axect
plan, so they
wont block u. now while making ur plans, take in
concidiration, that
ur emotions could make u do stuff u dont really want and
later regret,
(personal experiance) u wanna make a choice u really
want, so try 2
push logic on top of the pain and stick with that,
even its hard, cuz
after all u dont wanna end up in a few years, a bal
tshuva going
around giving lectures and fly in the sky, u wanna
make a stable
change.
Im also stuck and strugling, but even so, ive got
some info i feel
could b benefitial 4 u, so if u want u could find me on
fb as “wants
freedom” with the pic of the mosdos symble. but i
gotta agree there is
some difference between me and a skvere boy, that
is, that i know a
girl is not just a sex toy, but u could actually talk 2
it!!!
Wishes u lots of luck and hope ill also have
desperate to leave

run like hell