Uncharted Waters
Fruma Biegeleisen2011ContestsWinter 2011 Contest
They say I’m really sexy,
The boys they wanna sex me.
They always standing next to me,
Always dancing next to me,
Tryin’ a feel my hump, hump.
Lookin’ at my lump, lump
My eyes pop out as I look at the lyrics on my screen. This is what she’s listening to? This is the music my beautiful, smart Sarah’le has chosen to relax her, to motivate her, to inspire her? It is eleven o’clock on Saturday night and past her bedtime, but this can’t wait until the morning. I’m not going to be able to sleep tonight if I don’t speak to her. That’s just how I am, if there’s a problem, I need to take care of it immediately.
I knock and let myself into her bedroom. It’s messy, clothing on the desk and homework on the floor. It’s the room of a preteen girl; toys and stuffed animals are slowly giving way to delicate jewelry and fancy body lotions and Macy’s shopping bags. Sarah’le is on the bed, scowling at me, a book in her hand. She’s angry because we’ve been fighting over the last few days. It’s been tense. She’s been cold and distant and every time I try to bring her back in, she pushes me away. Over shabbos I asked her about the music she listens to. I meant to be cheerful and friendly, but it did not go well. Her father made some snide comments when she mentioned several rap artists and it all went downhill from there. Eventually, she just got up and left the table, like always.
“Sarah’le,” I start, tentatively. She looks at me and waits. Suddenly I realize I have nothing to say. I haven’t thought this through, I haven’t prepared.
“Sarah’le, look. I don’t want you listening to rap music. These songs are just all inappropriate.” She just looks at me with a blank expression and I ramble on. “There are other types of music which are very nice, you should try a variety of things, maybe country or soft rock or there are even some nice classical pieces which you might like.” I pause to gauge her reaction. “What do you think? Hm?”
“Are you done?” she snaps. “Because, see, I was just reading here.” I am taken aback. Who talks to their mother that way? What kind of child am I raising? What kind of parent am I? I try again, this time angrier.
“You can’t speak that way to me. Have some respect. Look, those songs are about sex and drugs and Tatty and I don’t want you listening to that stuff. It’s not okay.” What else do I say? I don’t know, I have not thought this through. If I was still frum, if I still believed in all of this, I would know what to say, this conversation would be a piece of cake. I would say that this music is tomei and goyishe and not tznius. I would say that it is not befitting for a bas yisroel and that I expect more of her. That we are an am kadosh and that the music we listen to influences our neshama. I would say all those things quickly and they would roll off my tongue with ease and confidence.
But I am not that person anymore and I don’t know anything for certain and I can’t quickly and confidently explain why I don’t want my child listening to Black Eyed Peas. So I just repeat myself, hoping foolishly that redundancy will somehow strengthen my point. “It’s not okay at all.”
Her eyes flash and she gets up from the bed, her arms crossed in front of her, defiant and hostile. “It’s not okay? Who cares what you think, if you think it is okay or not? You don’t want me to do anything! You won’t let me eat at ice cream shops if they are not cholov yisroel! You want me to wear skirts down to my toes! You want me to listen to country music and Uncle Moishy! Why should I care what you want?” She doesn’t even pause for a breath, all of the anger spilling out like scalding water from a broken cup. “You don’t even follow all the rules yourself, Mother! You sometimes sneak out and wear pants! I’ve seen you!” Now she stands back, waiting for a response.
I sink to the floor of her room.
It suddenly hits me, how many conversations I have forgotten to have with her. How many misunderstandings I have failed to notice and correct. How much explaining I have to do right now and how I don’t know the right words to even start. How do I explain that listening to these lyrics is not like eating cholov stam or wearing pants or other stupid rules that I don’t care about? How do I explain that I don’t want her to grow up thinking that it is acceptable for men to objectify women and that this has nothing to do with tznius, but everything to do with the strip clubs her very frum father frequents when he thinks no one will find out? How do I explain that there is a morality and a code of conduct without resorting to the standard religious dogma, especially when I’ve been pretending to espouse that dogma for as long as she’s known me? I have taken parenting classes, I have studied child development and behavioral psychology and nothing has prepared me for this.
Ideas bounce around in my mind, like lottery balls, and I reject them one by one. Finally, the machine stops and I have chosen the only way out I can think of: honesty.
She is still staring angrily at me when I take a breath and start to speak. I explain that there are many mitzvos I keep just so that the family stays together and we don’t have to go through a divorce. When she hears my voice break and sees the tears falling, Sarah’le comes and sits down next to me. I tell her that I don’t care about tznius and cholov yisroel and whether girls wear pants or not. I tell her that she must follow the rules in the house but that she is lucky because she will eventually leave and go to college and do as she pleases but I will still be here, stuck with all the rules.
“I didn’t know, I didn’t know, you never said anything,” she keeps repeating and I pat her head and tell her that it’s okay, it’s not her fault. Parents are supposed to protect their children and I tried for as long as I could.
I tell her then that I really do care about rap music and that I think it makes women into playthings for men and that I don’t want her to think of herself that way. She is non-committal, she says she’ll think about it and keep what I said in mind. It’s a lot to take in at once. I don’t know what else to say, everything has been said. We hug and she apologizes once more and I say goodnight and make sure you clean up this messy room tomorrow morning, young lady.
39 Responses
How can I direct my daughter when im still so unsure about everything myself. I’m experimenting but don’t think it’s effective to drag her with me. I’m still trying to figure out what a life without labels is like, what kinda woman I wanna be. I feel so unsure when I try to explain stuff to her. I feel inadequate and guilty for not knowing. That’s primarily the reason I have my ex raise her and my son in the perscribed all laid out rules of the chasidic environment. I don’t know which is worse, her being with a mom whose unsure and changes mind and body on a daily basis, the inconsistency, or living with a stable dad/family with rigid rules and where she can only experiment with who she is or wants to become only so much.
Despite the confusion, doubt and misgivings that reins among many of us, I have high hopes for ex-chassidim. Transitions are always difficult and painful. I recall a conversation I once had with a young man who left the Amish community. His resentment and anger reminded me of the anger I and many other ex-chassidim felt and still feel. He talked about hypocrisy, lack of parental nurturing, infallible authority figures and his exit out of the community. But at the same time, he confided to me that many aspects of the world of the ‘english’ (that would be analogous to what we once called “the goyishe world”) left him feeling less than thrilled. Despite his having left religion, he wanted his children to grow up with a sense of morals and social responsibility.
By the way, noted atheist Sam Harris (grew us as a nice Jewish secular boy in CA) has a good piece where he debunks the myth that we need the bible to know morals.
Congratulations Fruma, for coming out to your daughter: Mazel tov! I look forward to the maturation of my own children to do the same. There’s alot more to be said on this rich essay, but I want to still sit a bit in a dimly lit shul and hum some haunting tune to celebrate the closing of heaven’s revelations…. So, Goot yomtov!
Fruma, it won’t seem so significant yet, but this is a new beginning for you and your precious Sarah.
You’ve given her the gift of freedom of the mind, the greatest freedom of all.
I wish I could hug you for giving this gift to her.
I will try and daven for you. You seem to describe yourself as a fish who jumped out of the fishbowl and now you are grasping for breath on the carpet floor.
You yourself are the problem- not your daughter. You can be sure she knew of your attitude towards Torah long before you told her. Children pick up on things. You can never expect your children to do or believe anything that you do not do or believe. The walls have ears. You do not have to explain anything to her because as you say:
“How do I explain that I don’t want her to grow up thinking that it is acceptable for men to objectify women and that this has nothing to do with tznius, but everything to do with the strip clubs her very frum father frequents when he thinks no one will find out? How do I explain that there is a morality and a code of conduct without resorting to the standard religious dogma, especially when I’ve been pretending to espouse that dogma for as long as she’s known me?”
She already knew all about those things. Children have antenna’s. You can’t fake anything with them. You don’t have to say a word. It’s in the air of the home.
I would suggest that instead of just jumping ship completely you spend some serious time exploring Judaism on your own terms. Stop going through the motions and try and actually learn the hashgofas behind everything we do. Don’t worry about the Goldbergs. Learn about Tznius correctly for example R. Manis Friedmans, “Doesn’t Anyone Blush Anymore”. Learn the Torah’s views on sexuality properly for example Iggeres Kodesh of the Ramban. Don’t be afraid to learn something new and grow and expand. You have a powerful neshama that just needs a tune up. To just throw water on your fire will leave you empty and broken. You have more to offer than that!!
>Don’t be afraid to learn something new and grow and expand.
right start here: הלכות אישות פרק כא משנה תורה
כל אישה שתימנע מלעשות מלאכה מן המלאכות שהיא חייבת לעשותן כופין אותה ועושה, ואפילו בשוט.
Well written! I love this very honest discussion you have with yourself and with your daughter. Teaching her HONESTY; willingness to be truthful to yourself and those you love, and making yourself vulnerable because of it, is the most important lesson you can give a child.
As Billy joel sings:
….Honesty is such a lonely word.
Everyone is so untrue.
Honesty is hardly ever heard.
And mostly what I need from you.
Parenting is one of the most difficult jobs. Honesty is the best policy.
@Shmuel–
I’d like to reaffirm a statement you made: “The myth that we need the bible to know morals.” I am a secular goy, and even though my parents were both baptized in a Christian church, they were pretty indifferent to the practice and beliefs of religion. Despite that, they attempted to instill in me a strong sense of right and wrong, of what will hurt me and others, of giving without thought to reward. Guess what? They were no written-down tenets that they followed, or at least no religious ones they shared with me. I think I turned out okay.
They weren’t so thrilled about rap music, either.
FB I love everything you write, your pieces are so well written and full of raw emotion. I think you are an amazing woman and wish you the freedom that you deserve.
It seems that many OTD’ers, despite having renounced their conservative upbringing end up being quite conservative with their children. I know many parents who have not micromanaged their childrens’ choices of entertainment, and their kids turned out fine. We all can separate entertainment from real life, so can our kids, at least those children coming from a stable and nurturing home. Children who grow up in an unhealthy environment will most likely have issues regardless of the music they listened to.
That said, I love the piece.
Lukshen, גוט געזאגט!
Here is the piece shmuel is talking about. its Sam Harris and Richard Dawkins. Funny how i happened to have found it surfing on the net yesterday. See how its all bashert? Lol
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mm2Jrr0tRXk
i think everyone would enjoy this clip and should watch it. Except emes rocker. You continue praying.
Wow! What a complicated message for a child to absorb! I certainly hope you will keep us updated as to how your daughter changes in response to it.
Reb Shaully,
In The End of Faith, Sam Harris criticizes the Jewish faith and its followers:
“The gravity of Jewish suffering over the ages, culminating in the Holocaust, makes it almost impossible to entertain any suggestion that Jews might have brought their troubles upon themselves. This is, however, in a rather narrow sense, the truth. […] the ideology of Judaism remains a lightning rod for intolerance to this day. […] Jews, insofar as they are religious, believe that they are bearers of a unique covenant with God. As a consequence, they have spent the last two thousand years collaborating with those who see them as different by seeing themselves as irretrievably so. Judaism is as intrinsically divisive, as ridiculous in its literalism, and as at odds with the civilizing insights of modernity as any other religion.”
Harris had a Jewish mother and non Jewish father.
Harris cannot read or translate biblical Hebrew. That being the case, I do not believe you can place him in the category of someone who can have a respectable voice in criticizing Torah thought. It is sort of like someone with an elementary school education going to a Medical Conference on the Latest Techniques in Brain Surgery and raising his hand with an opinion.
He is unaware of the basic point that Jewish particularism is merely a precursor to an all encompassing universalism.
I think that you can probably find a better role model to base your rebellion on. This guy is pure minor league.
As for me, I am still sticking with all of our great sages who could easily rip Dawkins, Harris and all the others apart with half their brains tied behind their backs. Dawkins for sure is completely mad as is evidenced in the film Expelled by Ben Stein.
Emes, as someone who does have a solid Jewish education, I’m afraid that Harris may have a point. I hate to say this, but it seems to me that Jews have been adept at inviting anti-semitism (and still are…).
I don’t think Dawkins is mad at all. His mistake is not unlike that of Noam Chomsky; instead of sticking to their respective fields of expertise (in Dawkins case, biology and in Chomsky’s case, linguistics), they both decided to tackle issues that they don’t have the requisite knowledge and experience in (in chomsky’s case, politics and in Dawkins, case theology and philosphy).
For all you Richard Dawkins fans. Here is an interview that you will enjoy. Seems like it may be time to buy a Professor Dawkins a yarmulke.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GlZtEjtlirc
Enjoy,
ER
“Well, it could come about in the following way, it could be that at some earlier time somewhere in the universe a civilization… [came] to a very very high level of technology and designed a form of life that they seeded onto perhaps this planet. Now that is a possibility, an intriguing possibility, and I suppose it’s possible that you might find evidence for that if you look at the details of biochemistry and molecular biology you might find a signature of some sort of designer. And that designer could well be a higher intelligence from elsewhere in the universe.” — Richard Dawkins
Of course religious people jumped on this quote although Dawkins said nothing about the Judeo-Christian (or any other) God.
Certainly as long as there’s no proof for the existence of said intelligence, no atheist would accept it existence, but at the same time won’t and can’t, in good honest conscience, completely rule it out either
@emes. ok. quick recap, Harris made the point that Jews invited anti-Semitism upon themselves when proclaiming divine “specialty”, and you countered that with “Harris had a Jewish mother and non Jewish father.”
Genius.
“Harris cannot read or translate biblical Hebrew.”
I can. So all I got to do now is repeat what he said, and you got a valid person saying it. Mazel tov.
“I do not believe you can place him in the category of someone who can have a respectable voice in criticizing Torah thought”
Who do you think can criticize torah thought? Someone who doesn’t view it from the outside, someone who doesn’t inject any of his own rational into his decisions, someone who takes everything our chachumim said at face value, someone who doesn’t dare question or think, someone who wouldn’t argue with an “established fact” or established way of thinking because someone 2000 years ago thought so? I wouldn’t want an investigation into wrongdoings by the army to be done by the army, I wouldn’t want the watchdog for human rights group to be led by the Taliban, and I wouldn’t want my bible scholars to be religious fanatics…
“As for me, I am still sticking with all of our great sages who could easily rip Dawkins, Harris and all the others apart with half their brains tied behind their backs”
I feel like a birthing doctor debating with the stalk theory… “Talk to the wall, I believe that stalks bring the babies. My mom told me that and her mom told her that, going back to the most uncivilized and unsophisticated people who also believed in a flat round earth with a dome sky and tiny specs of light hanging from a wheel above, non-the-less, they were a lot more brilliant than anyone of us, because, well, I say so.”
What a waste of 2 billion years of evolution you are.
I have been called many things but never been called “a waste of 2 billion years of evolution”. Wow I am glad I have a little self esteem or else I think I would need major therapy/medication after that line.
I debated Harris on the radio once and when I asked him if he could read or translate biblical hebrew he replied that “that is a pretty high standard you are setting” I then replied that “any decent 12 year old yeshiva girl or boy can do that and all you are is an ignorant secular Jew”. He then was silent. Modeh. Then a commercial break.
Shauly my friend–just learn the Baal Haturim on Chumash and look at it with open eyes. This Torah of ours is endlessly deep. Do you really think that the sages would say that “Histachael B’Oraisa u Bara Olam” if illiterate punks like Harris could comment on this? Do you think they would make such a statement to millions of very smart Jews?
One day I will explain a bit what it means that G-d looked into the Torah and created the world but you will need a few more whiskers on your face first.
Go ahead mock that statement. Be my guest. U v’moshav laitzim lo yashuv.
Why is it that Dovid Hamelech begins Tehillim with that advice? You would think a book like Tehillim which teaches one how to connect with G-d would just start off with something more grandiose about the depths of creation. Nope. “Ashrei haEsh asher lo halach b’atzas reshaim, U v’moshav laitzim lo yashuv.” In other words, the truth of G-ds existence is so obvious that only someone who hangs with reshaim will be unable to notice it. In our generation that usually means someone who went to Grad school.
Peace Bro! Have a slice of good kosher pizza, a pepsi and good belch for lunch and smile.
EMES ROCKER
“I asked him if he could read or translate biblical Hebrew”
You have now established that a scientist dares to state his knowledge and findings, even though he isn’t AS familiar as you (or any 12 year old denied any education other than a 2000 year old mythological fairy tale book) in Hebrew translation. Or in the Hindu caste system, the African Gods, and the story of the volcano vishtu.
Let it hereby be known that it was hence, established, on this given day.
“Just learn the Baal Haturim on Chumash”
Ill add that to the long lists of “talk to rabbi x” and “read sefer y” that I got in the past 10 years.
Your ignorance isn’t even just orgasmic bliss emes, it’s already painful and unbelievable.
You seriously show me the divinity of the torah FROM THE TORAH? Its like proving wizards exist from the book of Harry Potter..
Anyways, beautiful torahs, and I will contact you next time I’m headed to a shabbos table. Meanwhile, imma have some dominos pizza, a coke, and continue laughing.
I hate to admit it but in High School I used to be a Domino’s Pizza Delivery boy in Nanuet NY. Let’s just say I was desperate for a part time job.
I think you would be better off at Chai Pizza in Monsey. That pizza they have with a million veggies is awesome.
Just learn the Baal Haturim only on Bereisheis parsha numero uno. That’s enough. You know its totally cool. Kind of hard to argue with gematrias he drops on us. Like bombs from outer space.
Your just being a poet and playing a role. Chassidish Eminem. I like your art. But don’t forget the emes.
See you at Chai 7pm tonight. I’ll buy you some fries.
Peace Bro,
ER
emes, you dont get it.
Ksil:Let’s learn b’chavrusa. Then we can see if I get it.
Are you open to learning Torah?
ER
I’m surprised no one has come in yet and tell us that we all need Jesus in our lives..
Shmuel, I couldn’t have said it any better. I’ve been going around to all kindsa religious ceremonies and churches lately, for the cultural experiance (including mesifta gevoha in lakewood on shevues night whooohooo!) And once you see them all talking with the same passion about jessus, muhamad, and the 17 different “higher powers” that has turned around their lives, and how you really feel and need him deep in your soul blah blah blah, talking with emes rocker is just another day. I had supper yesterday night with a german lady who is now a masseniac jew because her shoes changed colors in the winter. I promise you. You should see the passion in her eyes..
Emes, I can totally meet ya at chai if you really want to. Am in monsey today. Would be nice to see a human behind the words ya know. My email for if u actually do want meet: m.souldier@gmail.com,
I’m all for an “Unpious” get together in Israel…
Well, emes doesn’t seem that keen on the idea, because 7 o’clock came and went.. But its ok, I guess he doesn’t wanna be considered an unpious dude..ya know
Let’s disagree in an agreeable manner..
Emes Rocker, look up The Napkin Religion. “The Napkin Religion is the True Religion because it says so on this napkin.” That’s what “proving” the truth of scriptures by reading the scriptures comes down to.
Science is a very different thing. It improves. It can self-correct. Its results are verifiable and do not depend on the level of religious fervor or amount of memorized dogma of the observer. Well, actually they do. The religious fanatic is not capable of admitting error or challenging any of his own beliefs and so is incapable of doing Science. But acid + base -> water + a salt for him the same as it does for anyone else. Solar radiation is still measured the same way. Objects at rest still remain at rest and ones in motion remain in motion.
That’s one of the wonderful things about doing Science. And it’s one of the most liberating. Assumptions can be overturned. Progress is possible. Your spirit isn’t crushed by the dead hand of the past. I’d suggest you try it some time. But you won’t. It really is too dangerous because it asks inconvenient questions rather than providing pat answers under threat of torture and death. Which is what religious fanaticism always comes down to – Comply or die!
HR, I’d love an Unpious get together. Would really like to meet the faces behind the comments here.
Emes Rocker, you intrigue me. I garnered your begrudging respect a while ago. But here you are, spending inordinate amounts of time, trying to turn folks here around. You sound almost Chabad. You offer to do chevrusa (or as we say in my modern world, chevruta), kiruv, you’ll learn and email with anyone here who is willing. You offered to intercede on my behalf re: my mother and I’m almost tempted to take you up on that. There at least, you were on my side.
I don’t get it. This takes amazing heaps of your time. I have to force myself to get off line and not read all the backlog (I’m still relatively new here) because I can’t devote that much time, as much as I’d love to. The internet is a blessing and a curse that way. So much good stuff to read, such a time sink. I don’t have time to read everything here I want to. But here you are, giving up loads of time, to a site you don’t approve of! Emes Rocker, you’re so dedicated. Where do you find the time?
On a more serious note, while I appreciate your acknowledgement of my Judaism, a part of me really wishes you’d go away. You’re often a good foil and you get people’s juices flowing. But I worry that the men and women who leave the Chassidic world already need bottomless reserves of courage to survive. When you come along, you run the risk of bursting that tiny bubble, already fragile. But of course that’s what you are setting out to do.
I didn’t have this kind of support. I’m showing my age (I assure you I don’t act it!) but the internet was not around when I was breaking away. I want these new OTD’s to get support. To feel they aren’t doing this alone. You aren’t helping. I don’t want to see people here at the start of their journey to exist in a kind of purgatory, a nisht aher, nisht aheen halfway house.
ER, accept that people here are forging a new future. It doesn’t mean we forget the past. I’m passionate about my Judaism. I’m not Chassidish. I’m not Orthodox. But it doesn’t mean Yiddishkeit is not in my life. Accept that there are enough people in Brooklyn alone living your kind of life. Your universe is an expanding population, to say the least. Let go. You don’t need to kiruv everyone.
Hi J
Thanks for your motherly advice. You clearly seem like a kind and caring person. Kol Hakovod!
However, an alternative voice on this site which is largely filled with self hating, anti semitism is in my humble opinion–valuable.
Like I said in other posts, Torah is for sure not “Chassidishe or nothing.” One can be a fully committed Jew and not be Chassidishe. There are many varieties of Torah life in America and even more in Israel. One can be an artist, a poet, a doctor, a scientist, a rap/reggae musician and still be deeply connected to G-d, to Torah and to Mitzvos.
I myself am into many different things–music, art, poetry etc….
I learn Torah with some of the leading figures in the NYC music and art world.
There is no contradiction. However, anger, hatred and public disgust towards Am Yisroel, the Am Kodesh–is not acceptable. It is dangerous. We have enough enemies outside and we don’t need them inside.
As for the Unpious get together, I think the best place for some of the writers on this site would be Germany, Iran or possibly somewhere on the hot beaches of Gehennom. I hear the weather is very warm there this time of year. Should I look into a group flight?
Ah. The threat of hell and fires. As todd said so beautifully a few comments ago ” religious fanaticism always comes down to – Comply or die!”
Actually if you look at the list of those not making it into the world to come in the mishnah towards the end of Sanhedrin you will see that it is actually quite small. The gemara over there makes the list even smaller.
So the whole comply or die thing is not a Jewish idea at all.
However to be a mumar l’hachis…well that’s a whole other story and as I have said before, it’s a really bad career move. (HR take note…)
The concept for Yidden is actually comply and LIVE. In this world and also in the next. Live well. Party. Celebrate. Kugel, Kishke, Shnapps…tantz, tantz, tantz chabibi!
CHOOSE LIFE!
This was beautifully written Fruma. Bravo to you for taking steps towards honesty and freedom for you and your daughter. Truly inspiring.
Just wanted to say about the Black Eye Peas, yeah they suck. Their last few albums are just pure sell outs. But you know, t’s kinda like junk food. Don’t take it too seriously. I wouldn’t be caught dead purchasing one of their albums, you know, I turn my nose up at them. But damn it, a couple of those songs are catchy, so just like junk food, yes, I am not proud to have had it, but I have had it on occasion, infrequently.
However, you can definitely introduce your daughter to much better sounding, smartly written rap music. Because there is a lot of crappy rap and violent rap, you may consider introducing other options. Absolutely give The Miseducation of Lauren Hill a listen, specifically the song “That Thing” which articulates what you were trying to tell your daughter about the objectification of women. She also sings about how cursing ain’t that cool. She previously made another album called The Score with the band The Fugees and that’s an awesome album too. Can’t remember if it has any objectionable lyrics though, I don’t think so. Also, 2 more seminal, old school records by women that are great for women to listen to are Queen Latifah’s Black Reign, and Supa Dupa Fly by Missy Elliott. However, both Queen Latifah and Missy Elliott curse a little (though there are some curse-free songs by both) and Missy Elliott has other albums that you will find objectionable.
Amongst man-made rap that is smartly written, innoffensive to women and curse-free are the albums by A Tribe Called Quest: The Low End Theory, People’s Instinctive Travels and the Paths of Rhythm, others (this is from back in the 90’s but pretty brilliant musically and lyrically.)
Gabriella , usually at least in my experience anything a parent suggests to a child especially in the realm of POP culture is almost automatically rejected, especially something ancient from the 90’s
.
Velvel: I know! just gotta have tough skin and be ready for rejection. But hey, I was just trying to hit a little closer to the ballpark than “country music and Uncle Moishy.”
Turn her on to disco! And the Beatles and Led Zeppelin. It’s real hot with the teen set. And, surreptitiously, Mother approved.
J. Gabriella I totally hear you. Also J. I so agree, 60’s music is hip , because it’s not pop , which is cool (why is quite a long sugya), also they are less about objectifying women etc. I especially recommend Metallica’s song the Unforgiven, for the Unpious crowd.
http://inamerica.blogs.cnn.com/2011/12/05/wheres-the-love-in-rb-music/ , This is an article attacking gen x (in regard to music) , but still its a good article. I am not sure if a teenager is ready to hear it , especially if suggested by her mother, but still.