Leiby Kletzky

Amen to every word.
I have a 10 year old boy and I can only imagine the terrible pain (…and guilt – “how could we have let him walk alone? why didn’t we teach him to avoid ALL strangers, even the Frum looking ones?”) that family must be feeling right now. It’s heartbreaking.
If I may – I would add – how sad it is that if the child would have been a black or Pakistani 9 year old in exactly the same circumstances – would we have anywhere near the same interest and worry? I guess there is only so far that we can extend our moral connection before it fades…

You know, as for your third point, I’m actually surprised that Leiby followed a non-Hasidic man. Neither my siblings nor my child (when we lived in the Hasidic community) would consider a man like him trustworthy. He clearly puts a knife to his beard! We wouldn’t talk to him.

This compounds my confusion and complicated feelings. It’s pretty likely that a more sheltered Leiby would not have met this fate with the orthodox villain. It’s true that this possibility doesn’t say anything about Hasidic children at risk in general, but it does tear the heart to imagine how different things would have been if Leiby were more sheltered and afraid of “mederene” outsiders.

My thoughts exactly. So horrible, so mind-numbing, yet… enraging. And frustrating that such a tragedy so inevitably brings up such deep-seated resentment.

On an even more personal note: as a parent myself, this story just induces such incredible anxiety.

One wishes for some comfort, for some relief from this madness, but where to find it, when the pages of my old tehilim’l are now blank…

Shpitzle — it’s Boro park. The kid’s father probably (or so it seems from the photos) trimmed his beard too. And someone living on E. 2nd street is likely to speak a pretty heimish Yiddish.

Shulem, details are still unclear. Maybe you’re right. We’ll find out soon enough.

My understanding, from unconfirmed reports, is that he was molested before he was murdered. Perhaps there’s hope that after this molestation ended in horrifying, gruesome murder and severing a poor child’s body, Hasidic parents will finally begin to react appropriately to molestation. It’s been ignored and brushed over for too long. Too often has the lack of physical evidence on a sexually abused minor been confused with a lack of tragic pain. After molestation progressed to this tragedy, I can hope parents will be shocked and distraught when they hear about molestation, and take action.

So heart breaking and confusing on so many levels. I just can’t go about my normal life. I feel like I want to do SOMETHING, but what to do? Like Shulem said, tehillim just won’t do it for me anymore. I actually miss the days I would be able to take out a tehillim in such a situation and cry my heart out, feeling much better afterwards. Now, to feel better I would have to do something which would really make a difference…

This post is pure hate having all facts wrong. Aren’t you supposed to be the liberal open minded folks always screaming when someone says a judgmental statement about you guys? Hypocrisy at it best.

Some facts:

Anger (or for some of us, rage), that the community can mobilize to search for this boy, in an attempt to protect him, while it simultaneously does nothing to protect hundreds of other children at
Risk from child molesters.

Are you angry a father will love his child more than yours and will do everything to help him? This community is like one big family they will do everything to help each other in time of need. You are jealous and angry and rightfully so.

Further anger that the community flaunts its “cohesiveness” and “collective action” to the outside world, proclaiming that they, as Orthodox Jews, are more caring, more loving, more community minded, while that same collective concern is non-existent in other cases of child endangerment.

This community cares as much to protect its kids as any other community they lack professionalism and coherency though, true education is needed and they are making headway.

Concern that Leiby’s fate was what it was, because of how he (and other frum children) was raised, with complete obedience to adults and no understanding of the details of potential dangers (beyond a generalized ‘the outside world is dangerous’ which may not be relevant in this case, as the accused seems to be a member of the community).

As pointed out the opposite is true our kids are afraid of strangers like no one else and will run away even by their look this guy was a clear stranger to a Chasidic boy by looking at his picture, the boy was lost he was desperate and asked for help.

Mounting trepidation as the facts and rumors pile in, that the accused may have been a known child molester, protected by the community.

The facts say otherwise, that guy had no record whatsoever not protected or what have you. By browsing his Facebook page he appears much more as a secular/OTD type then sincere religious.

For writing up such a disgusting post on the heels of such a tragedy I can only say: SHAME ON YOU.

That’s the perverse heimishe community for you!
May the victim’s family only find comfort and share simches

The dismemberment and refrigerator made me wonder: did he eat, or plan to eat, parts of the boy’s body? If so, this makes it even more horrifying.

FreiFem and Shulem Deen,

Are either of you in the ‘It Gets Besser’ video? – I noticed it was made by the associate editor of this site along with a regular contributor.

Also, FreiFem, I have this weird feeling that I know some of your brothers. Do you have a brother that is sort of a kiruv rabbi in a sort of kiruv community?

CriticV — Leah Vincent, our associate editor, is in the video. I’m not. The identity of FreiFem, as she herself noted, is not public, so please understand if she can’t answer questions regarding her real-life persona.

I am struck by this horrific crime, and am really not sure if this the right time to be discussing the way the chareidi community protects the perp more then the victim. With that said , I understand FreiFem expressing her feelings as she always does, I am just not sure if its the right time, for this discussion.

FrieFern: I hope that when the shock and grief subside, our broader community (I’m not Chassidish) can use this situation to face some of the realities that you mention. If we’re serious about protecting our children, it’s time we open our and their eyes to what the dangers are, especially those among us. The naive assumption that every Yid with a beard is safe only propagates this idea that if we ignore it it will go away. I do NOT think it’s fair to accuse you (as B.T. did) or others who raise this vital point of being insensitive, even if you did have other criticisms. I don’t know your personal story, but some of the people I know who have left the community (although I think you are clearly part of “our” wider Jewish community) are precisely the people who need to be heard on this because they are among the people most wronged by this defensive indifference, Our children’s lives are too precious not to use a tragedy like this as a wakeup call.

FreiFem,
I realized you want to protect your identity that was why I asked a roundabout question – I thought it would be no big deal considering I remember you saying how you met people at a Footsteps event the previous night thus I thought it was not big deal if another person knows who you are.
Nonetheless, I’m sorry. I guess I should have been more respectful of your efforts in keeping your identity safe.

Here is one that I didn’t see on the list.

Sadness: That an insular worlds trust (even if it means having a beard) was so destroyed by an orthodox Jew committing a monstrous act of child-murder.

From a more religious perspective I remember this the summer time and maybe the three weeks of mourning and tisha b’av is a deeper reason for this. Otherwise perhaps ‘issues’ such as sexual molestation, and for all we know mental illness shouldn’t be brushed aside when suspected.

The latest news is that the alleged perpetrator knew the family of the deceased. This is not surprising. Predators often groom their victims.

Todd, where do you take that from? Can you include a link?

Not true. That animel confeesed the boy asked him for directions transcript here: http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/The-Accused-Killer-in-His-Own-Words-125539088.html

HOEZEN ON FACEBOOK
I’m sick and tired of stupid, narrow minded people who can’t get over
the shock that a Jew would do this. Sick comes in every flavor and
color. What’s religion got to do with it?!

MK
I’m utterly shocked a Jew would do such a thing.

HOEZEN
You better stop it MK. I’m in a foul mood. And you
think by non jews this is excepted behavior. And
that’s why in the prisons, the other hardened criminals give them
hell.

SB
Absolutely. Perversion, mental
illness, and just plain evil exist in every society. We stick our
heads in the sand when we pretend that inborn psychopathy or sexual
deviation somehow pass us over just because we’re frum.

RW
You must admit that commonly
orthodox jews don’t kill people, how many murders were committed by
frum jews since your alive? Not too many, so its a shock, though not
unbleivable

HOEZEN
Really. And goyim typically do
kill little kids. As a matter of fact, if we wanna look at statistics,
since we are like what, 3 percent of the population, our rates of
violent crimes of this nature, is probably close to the general
populations.
As for other violent crimes, most violent crimes are closely related
to drugs, gangs, and other socioeconomic factors, breakdown of family
etc. We kill less not because we are inherently better people, but
rather because our environment is more stable. Oh and BTW, if you
wanna make this a “Jew” issue, I wonder what the Israeli statistics
are re violent crimes… Oh, but of course, Russians and Sefardim
aren’t Jews. I forgot.

RW
I said orthodox jews

HT
Last time I checked RW, the
Torah doesn’t prevent mental disease.

RW
Again, all I
said we don’t hear many if any frum jews killing kids, I don’t remeber
if ever did I hear of a frum jew killing a kid

HOEZEN
I have. Abuse related. But guess
what? We all hear about this happening periodically in the news, but
how many nonjews do you think are acquainted with the specifics of
such an horrendous crime more closely than you are? Why is this even
about Jews and NonJews? Give it up!

CH
You’re being
uber-sophisticated. It’s shocking. It’s shocking because shock is an
emotional reaction that can’t be rationalized away. We’re not
desensitized yet to violent frum crimes, even if the community is
represented proportionally.

HOEZEN
Trust me CH, I’m beyond shock
myself. I’m shocked that a human being can do this to a kid. I was
actually 100 percent convinced that a frum guy is involved, cause that
explained the ” disappeared without a trace”.

CH
You mentioned that yesterday.
Earned a point.

Nothing like a tragedy to give us all another fine helping of hasidic xenophobia prepared Dov Hikind style

http://video.nytimes.com/video/2011/07/13/nyregion/100000000943789/dov-hikind-on-the-leiby-kletzky-killing.html

But of course, I’m sure if you ask him, racial profiling still works.

Hoezen — Spot on with your comments. Specifically this part, which I think needs to be emphasized:

Really. And goyim typically do kill little kids? As a matter of fact, if we wanna look at statistics, since we are like what, 3 percent of the population, our rates of violent crimes of this nature, is probably close to the general populations.

As for other violent crimes, most violent crimes are closely related to drugs, gangs, and other socioeconomic factors, breakdown of family etc. We kill less not because we are inherently better people, but rather because our environment is more stable. Oh and BTW, if you wanna make this a “Jew” issue, I wonder what the Israeli statistics are re violent crimes… Oh, but of course, Russians and Sefardim aren’t Jews. I forgot.

Todd wrote:

“The latest news is that the alleged perpetrator knew the family of the deceased. This is not surprising. Predators often groom their victims.”

Shpitzle Shtrimpkind asked:

“Todd, where do you take that from? Can you include a link?”

Shpitzle, I’ve seen it both ways. I think it was WNBC reporting the accused knew the family. But this from the NYT.

“”There is no indication that they boy knew Aron. It was happenstance and a terrible fate for this boy. This was a horrendous crime. We are extremely grateful for the support we received from the community. We extend are deepest condolences to the Kletzky family,” added Kelly.

In his statement, Aron, incriminating himself, said: “I understand this may be wrong and I’m sorry for the hurt that I have caused.”

May be wrong? Oy…

Your blame of this very sad and tragic incident on the boy’s parents and comunity are pathetic. Yes there is abuse in some frum communities- but in comparison to the rest of the world, there is more “caring, loving and community mindedness” (to quote you) than we see in any other communities in the world.Frum people are painfully aware that issues like child abuse are indeed occurring, and they are being discussed and dealt with ie read http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/article.php?p=97492

Too late for poor Liebe but nontheless- to condemn the frum world tels me that you obviously have a chip on you shoulder and have great chutzpa to blame the boy’s own parents!(“because of how he was raised…with complete obedience etc”) Shame on you – it does not help what happen. Also it is not as if other 8 year old children are raised knowing EVERY detail of what a bad man might do to them. I guess the rest of the world does it right- because an incident like this has surely never happened to them- give me a break.

Yehudis —

“Your blame of this very sad and tragic incident on the boy’s parents and comunity are pathetic.”

I don’t know how you managed this, but you’ve quite brilliantly found something in FreiFem’s words that were totally not there. Not a single word of hers suggests “blame.”

As far as is known right now, the child was autistic, the perpetrator was brain damaged, there was no sexual abuse. It may have been a tragic and bizarre case of one mentally handicapped person trying to befriend another and ending in homicide.

There can be little question that the extreme, unified pressure brought by the orthodox community on law enforcement helped lead to a record fast arrest of the perpetrator.

Shulem, call it blame or not you not having the decency to admit this post is totally off shows the sad fact how resentful and dissconnected from reality you’ve become. In the past you wrote beautifully about the warmness and love the Chasidic community possess despite it’s problems. The general media who will jump on every opprtunity to paint us bad, at this tragic story couldn’t hold back priase on the love and unity the frum world showed; the Unpious will choose denial and hate. Just sad.

I think that this post raises 2 main issues, one seems right to me whilte the other is just wrong.

I think it’s simply true fact that the chassidic community – with all its problems, infighting, lifestyle of fraud and tax avoidance, not to mention the brutal mistreatment of dissent – bonds together in overwhelming fashion at times of great need. I don’t see how you deduct “more caring, more loving”. This is a benefit of close community and sheltered life. Doesn’t make it right nor true, but it’s a healthy side effect regardless.

You are spot on with your harshness about the way child molestation is being covered up by the community at large. Just three weeks ago there were a couple of incidents, and in one of them no charges are pending, on the behest of a well known rabbi who “choked up for several minutes” at his Hesped. Its disgusting, and he should be banged up himself for that shameful brushing under the carpet!

But most importantly; the human condition!

My heart is bleeding with pain! I could not stop crying all week. Try to visualize the horrific vulnerability of a lone kidnapped 8 year old Leibele, being bound and tortured at the hands of a child molester for hours, crying for his mummy in sheer terror, in complete and utter helplessness, only to then be brutally smothered to death. The confession of “he fought beck a little” just tore my cringing heart apart! How barbaric! How undeserving! Which parental instinct is not overwhelmed with intolerable anguish and piercing pain!

And the parents; to walk into the children’s bedroom and be facing an empty bed, a drawer full of clothing never to be used again, an empty chair at the shabbos table, a mother lighting a candle for a precious child never to be hugged again, for Leibele whose only existence has become a deep, burning longing and an ever-lasting memory, a memory inseparable from this fateful last walk home and horrific last few hours,A memory of precious Leibele never to turn nine years of age, for Nachmans lonely walk to shul on Friday night missing Leibele at his side, for Esther Kletzy getting up in the morning and no longer sending young leibele off to school, no longer packing lunches for him, no kissing of “a gitn toog”, no more a Leibele running home from school in Esther’s open arms, and no more flow of mutual affection, love and care.

How sweet and welcoming become the problems of upbringing our children; of admonishing bad behavior, of making peace amongst rowing siblings, How gladly would Esther and Nachamn Kletzky welcome these little problems back! What a “hartzreisenish”!

And on a more pertinent point for the community that is this blog; A very natural response for me on the inside, was an intense longing for my children, an absolute need to rush home and hug each and every one of them with all my heart, reassure them in their confusion and insecurity, reaffirming my commitment to “spending time with them” in face of the helter skelter of work.

This soul-nourishing close contact is missing for so many of you, whose children have been estranged from you in the most barbaric ways, those of you who are the victims of a “righteous war” waged by the Chassidic community against its dissenters. How terrible must this void be, and how brutal this feeling of absence. I could not separate the thought of this heartless reality for so many of you, as I was hugging my children.

How can people profess “absolute morality” as only a product of belief, yet behave in such barbaric ways in the name of that very morality. Yu will not see a 8000-strong crowd protesting against this abhorrent practice. Instead it will support this!

Talk about how “wonderful” this community spirit is.

The thing that struck me is that there’s tens of thousands of chassidishe children souls “murdered” every day through indoctrination…THAT brings tears to my eyes.

HT and SD:

“…since we are like what, 3 percent of the population”.

Where did this statistic come from? Of a population of about 300 million, 3 percent would be 9 million. Do you seriously think the orthodox population is that big? Unless of course you’re talking about the number of Jews in general as part of the global population, but then your comment is pointless since at least 98% of those are secular.

BTW, the percentage of Jews as part of the global population is 0.22%, of the American population it’s 1.9%.

On the night on which Leiby Kletzky was kidnapped, a murder plot was in full swing for over a year, and there was going to me another attempt to murder a Jewish Man by a Boro Park couple who live on 50th st. The man had been a former tenant of these people who have an adopted teenage son, and was being targeted for death because he caught the woman spreading slander about him and she feared his reprisal. Moreover, the couple’s neighbors had been aware of the feud and the slander and possibly became aware of the murderous intentions as well. At worst they actually stood by and supported this woman and at best, probably said nothing even if they were aware. The former tenant that was the intended victim of this murderous plot, was the only son of aged parents. Fortunately, the police were aware of plot and it failed. The people live close to the D train.