Polygamy & Moral Relativism

I was semi impressed with this article as I read the beginning but had thought and grappled with many if not all the points raised , I even think we had a short exchange regarding this topic via comments on this blog.
But (I am starting a sentence with but because its a comment section) the last paragraph was what really blew me. It was such an interesting and new (at least to me) way of judging a society.

According to those religious societies which don’t allow their members to leave, they are doing what is best for that person by forcing them to act in their so called “own self interest”. I know this is an extreme example, but they would compare it to not allowing a person to commit suicide . I know I myself have heard frum people say , we need to force our children to be frum , because the same way we would save them from physically harming themselves, we need to save them from spiritually harming themselves. I differ with them , but wonder if my beliefs are a form of imperialism , albeit a perverse one.
I also think this gets into the question of ritual violence. Ok I think I have opened many cans of worms and maybe even barrels of them ,so I will stop here.

Velvel says;
“I know I myself have heard frum people say , we need to force our children to be frum , because the same way we would save them from physically harming themselves, we need to save them from spiritually harming themselves.”

Allow me to add, i have friend who was struggling with life and faith as a teenager. He asked his father, who he upon occasion debated philosophy with, the following question. Honestly, as a devout Jew but also as my father,tell me, would you rather me be Frum but miserable, even be self destructive, or would you rather I find my own way and be healthy and happy, but not Frum?

His father, to his credit he always would answer honestly in their discussions instead of spouting vague reassuring kiruv like platitudes. His father answered, better to be Frum.

Better to be Frum then happy is a stretch I can’t ever agree with, but one can wrap the brain around. Better to be Frum then healthy is too far a stretch and crosses the line into a dangerous territory.

May be of interest:

There’s a theory in social psychology, based on expanding research, known as system justification theory. The basic idea is that people have a motivation to defend the status quo around them as just and fair, even when it works against them. So, disadvantaged groups in a society will often ironically believe in and support the very system that keeps them disadvantaged–not because it is actually just and fair, but because they are motivated to believe it is.

How to put that into action is a harder question. It doesn’t mean you should force people into choices that are “better for them”–that has often had even worse consequences throughout history, and people generally like freedom of choice–but it is something to keep in mind when thinking about cultural relativism and happiness.

Whoops–here’s a link that works:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/System_justification

Justin the query you bring up is an interesting one , one which I myself have asked my parents, in a different circumstance but with the same implications, and the message I have received is, it is better you should be frei , happy, and healthy. How fortunate is my lot , that I have such wise and understanding parents.
I believe that people getting killed (lets deal with the extreme because it is easier and more appropriate for a comment section as opposed to a 3 am conversation) is “so” morally wrong that I would intervene in another culture (i.e. the ritual violence practiced by some Native American tribes in South America) to stop it, even though that is paternalistic and goes against many of my libertarian believes. I would love to know Tova Shreiber’s (the Righteous Rasha’s ) opinion on this matter.

Velvel you were indeed fortunate to have understanding parents. But from the viewpoint of any religious fundamentalist how can that be the response?
According to them, frum way of life is the only way, i.e. if you violate one or many of certain commandments you will burn in hell forever therefore better to follow mitzvos even if you will be a miserable bastard who will forever feel repressed and end up beating your children out of frustration or something. So what, any kind of frum life is better then the life of a shaygetz.

I would think that has to be the fundamentalist view, no?

Justin I do think that would be the extreme fundamentalist view, but I also think practically many/some frum people’s love for their children triumphs over that fundamentalism. I think the only way the fundamentalist could get out of that view is to get into a rather technical discussion regarding what is considered pikuach nefesh.

Just to add onto your point a little, and say it in more absolute and maybe clearer terms. I think they would continue and extend their argument by saying, isn’t it better to have a terrible life on this earth but have ETERNAL paradise, then a good life on this earth but eternal hell?
I think the only way the fundamentalist could get out of that view is to get into a rather technical discussion of what is considered pikuach nefesh.

How do atheists treat children who become devout monotheists? How have atheist governments treated monotheists?

And according to atheism, since people are merely soulless bags of chemicals, why should any abuse of people be a bad thing? And in any case, since we are really zombies who have no free will, how can any act be condemned? My brain chemistry made me do it.

Jacob I wonder what you consider an atheist government, most atheist have moral systems , i.e. Kants , or Mills etc. So I wonder whihc government applied an atheist system of government. In other words for a government to declare itself atheist is meaningless if it does not follow an atheist code of morality.
Unless you argue that there is no morality in atheism , because all morality has to come from a divine power. If you believe that , at least try and understand the other side that there is morality in atheism, that does not mean to drop your opinion , but merely to understand the other side.

Oh and Jacob by the way , how is your argument relevant , who cares how atheist treat their children that does not increase or diminish the morality of the way religious ones do?
Also can you please answer the following question,tell me, would you rather me be Frum but miserable, even be self destructive, or would you rather I find my own way and be healthy and happy, but not Frum?” (quoted from Justin’s comment)

“I wonder what you consider an atheist government”

Soviet Union, China, North Korea, etc.

“most atheist have moral systems , i.e. Kants , or Mills etc”

Those are silly attempts to camouflage nihilism.

“who cares how atheist treat their children that does not increase or diminish the morality of the way religious ones do?”

I’m just pointing out that most parents have little tolerance for radically rebellious children, whether Amish or atheist or whatever. Some average American kid in Iowa who puts on a yarmulke and converts to Orthodox Judaism will probably be just as much an outcast from family and friends as the Hasidic kid in Brooklyn who takes off his yarmulke and becomes an atheist.

“would you rather me be Frum but miserable, even be self destructive, or would you rather I find my own way and be healthy and happy, but not Frum”

Orthodox Judaism requires martyrdom instead of apostasy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martyrdom_in_Judaism

OK Jacob Stein , I tried to honestly discuss an issue with you , but you don’t discuss you dismiss , making a serious conversation impossible. So I give up.
I will address your second point but without the expectation of having a serious dialogue. You are right most people want their children to grow up like them , but the extremes prevalent in the orthodox (especially chareidi) community are much more radical, i.e. mourning a child for marrying a non Jew.
The third point you won’t answer straight, but let me just paraphrase , you would rather your child be depressed (as long as they are not suicidal) and frum , then happy and frei.

“So I give up.”

I think you just dismissed, instead of discussed.

“but the extremes prevalent in the orthodox (especially chareidi) community are much more radical”

Ever talked to some converts to Judaism about how their family reacted? You might be surprised. There’s a range of reactions, but basically people feel, “Me, good; not like me, not good.”

Take for example the immigration issue in America. Would people be so worried about illegal immigrants if they were coming from Canada instead of Mexico? But aren’t American’s supposed to be so open minded and unprejudiced?

Yes Jacob, but I also came knowing your history on this website and others, so I gave you one chance to see if you wanted to have an honest conversation and I got my info, the answer was a loud no.

I think the answer is that you’re in denial.

Yes you figured it out, I am being chozer betshuvah right now , barega chadah as the gemara says.

Excellent choice.

You know, if you are a heretic, true repentance will probably kill you, the strain is so great. If this happens, please ask your survivors to email me the address of your funeral home and I hope to be able to eulogize you, my schedule permitting.

Best of luck!

Velvel don’t waste your time debating with Jacob Stein.I’m sure you have seen his blog and read his life story.

I have thought about composing a short sketch of Mr. Stein, his life and views, and post it following his posts on various webpages. It would explain and perhaps analyze Mr. Stein’s life story in detail, including his turbulent teenage years as he struggled with growing to maturity in an evolving and confusing time.

A rough adolescence was compounded by him having to grapple with an identity crisis as an adopted child whose birth parents did not want him. His unfortunate adopted brother struggled with mental breakdowns and poor Jacob could not deal with his life, a hard life, one in which it was difficult to find purpose and meaning.

Jacob was a thoughtful teenager. He read many books and, unlike his contemporaries who were interested in girls and weed and getting into a good school, he would think about life and his place in it. After much exploring, Young Jacob stumbled across Orthodox Judaism through an Avigdor Miller tape he found in the library. The ideas Miller expounded upon fascinated young Jacob. Here was a system, a life that gave reason to everything. And better yet, every action and every thought can be dictated to me and I have to think for myself no longer. Never mind that I may be sacrificing my individuality or freedom, now I have a course to which I can set my compass by, Jacob thought.
It was a wonderful life. Jacob bid a somewhat harsh adieu to his heartbroken Lutheran parents and flew off to Israel to lose himself in study. Life was good. He wed another convert and together they lived a simple but holy existence. Occasionally Jacob would think of the world he left behind or the books and ideas that he was now forbidden to peruse. But it was good, and the Rabbi’s always had a clever answer to any doubts or questions he may have. Years passed.

Slowly, certain things began to fall apart. The brother back home killed himself. Jacob’s wife left him and Orthodoxy in order to explore her creative interests back home. Shattered, Jacob left Bnei Brak and his dreams of becoming a Rabbi, moved to Queens, and became a computer programmer. He built a new life, married anew. But his checkered painful history has left him at times filled with emptiness. The Orthodoxy that he once thought had all the answers ultimately did not leave him fufilled. Life was hard. One of his children was debilitated with disabilities. Miller’s god did not account for all these agonizing things. But instead of turning his back on the religion which niggled painfully at him, Jacob went in the opposite direction. He researched the harsh and condemning biblical edicts and appointed himself a champion for Yahweh. To hate is to live, someone once said, and in hate Jacob discovered new purpose. The gays the atheists and the abortionists, all were crushed under the wrath of God, wielded by his new champion, Jacob Stein. Jobless, Jacob finds meaning furiously blogging about his eternal truths. He has been described as a Jewish version of the AntiAntiChrist. The whorerish premarital sex mongers are just one segment of the population to fall under Mr. Stein’s newfound religious fury. The death deserving gays are another.

Stein’s two main obsessions that he rails against seem to be atheists and sex. Amateur psychologists have reasoned that the first may be a reaction to his own doubts regarding the authenticity of his chosen life. The second, they claim, is a natural reaction of an older man who just may have “a little problem” and is reluctant to turn to the little pill.

All in all, we must take Mr. Stein’s rants with the proverbial heavy dose of salt. No need to get upset with him so much as we should sympathize with what is obviously a very troubled existence.

All I can say Justin is thanks.

Do I notice a little bit of ad hominen here? Well, no matter. Without logical fallacies, atheists would be completely lost. There is no other way they can prop up their absurd and toxic world view.

The way with which you judge societies, based on how they treat members who wish to leave is an interesting one, thanks for introducing it.