This is just a hunch, but one born of years of experience. This whole thing is, for your parents, a matter of virginity. Why virginity is so important is beyond me, but it is at the core of their existence. And they want it to be at the core of yours.

To you, what should be important, is a happy life. That’s what you should marry for; not for the approbation of your parents and their friends (heard at a wedding, after mine, “is it kosher?”. When you are satisfied that yours will be a life-time relationship, get married, either to your current boy-friend or another. And before that, don’t.

OM — Not sure about the virginity part. You’re assuming the parents are clueless about their daughter’s sex life, which they may or may not be. It sounds to me like they’re just concerned about family image.

Shulem Deen; To them, family image (probably) equals virginity. Note that I say “probably”.

Money in this situation is not an abstract deal – I don’t like Posek trivializing this situation by deriding the concept of getting this sort of financial help. Yes, I would agree if the money was an extra type of financial gain and this deal was being brokered… But this is money which will fuel this woman’s very existence. An apartment and education which otherwise might not be able to be obtained… That is not trivial. Having myself lived on tuna fish and been homeless bec. of leaving the community, I realize that money is not something to be sniffed at in this situation… It is necessary. And I say, you go girl. Get your money and ferociously pursue a life and your dreams. Try not to compromise too much, but you did say you love him. I would say just have small religious ceremony to satisfy em, don’t even be married in your mind. You have to get yours. Your parents aren’t playing by “normal” rules so beat ‘em by playing your own game with em… Do their silly ceremony and get what you should get from your parents. Your not giving into your parents. Your playing ‘em, as you should so that you get the financial help you need. It’s not immoral, ‘cause they started the game immorally. Fight fire with fire. Think of it as your parents love you and want to help you but they are overtaken by a strange hypnotic trance that requires them to ask you to sign a mysterious paper and have some L’chaims. It doesent mean anything to you and your man. If later you decide to get married (and I don’t think you should till your certain of your relationship) then great.

As for having a meaningful relationship with your parents, good luck with that. Just bear in mind they are under the influence of this strange cultlike trance that will prevent your relationship from ever really being “normal.” If you can find some balance to maintain some sort of relationship that will be beneficial to you, then more power to you. But this relationship is a separate discussion then the pressing issue at hand… You getting what is rightfully yours, financial help from parents. So go get it, and fight and lie get what’s yours, so you have the ability to pursue the glorious existence that you deserve.

Justin responds: “I don’t like Posek trivializing this situation by deriding the concept of getting this sort of financial help. Yes, I would agree if the money was an extra type of financial gain and this deal was being brokered… But this is money which will fuel this woman’s very existence. An apartment and education which otherwise might not be able to be obtained…”

Justin, you make a salient point but I’m taking the other side on this. I too know what it was like to be in dire financial straits, trying to carve out a new existence without parental support, financially and emotionally. I wouldn’t be so cavalier as to suggest it’s all very manageable. I can remember, when finally able to land a part time in my chosen field, literally starving two days before the paycheck came in. I was eating jelly from the packets in the company kitchen, too proud to ever ask anyone for a handout. I don’t make light of this.

That said, if this young woman is so poor, she is also much too poor to get married right now. The charedi world is very big on helping married children on their feet because marriage is the be all and end all. The modern world says you need to develop self-sufficiency first.

I’m with Posek. Young woman, hang in there. Keep working on getting that degree and find a way to subsidize it yourself. That you have a supportive boyfriend is great. You don’t sound ready to get married and that’s fine. I had boyfriends I was madly in love with in my twenties and I didn’t marry anyone of them. I went on to get married but in my thirties. To someone else.

Bottom line: you aren’t ready to get married. The best part is you know it! You can scrape by being poor while young and still single. It gets much harder when you add a husband then a baby, maybe, into the mix.

It is hard. No question about that. I will say your parents are a lot more supportive than mine were but that’s because your parents aren’t Holocaust survivors, they are probably the children of them. Your mother and father are already far more Americanized than mine were.

But the flip side of thie coin is, that’s precisely the seductive catch! I never had the option. My parents weren’t brokering this kind of deal. Which in the long run was much much better and I’m so much the richer (not talking money) for it.

It’s really hard being on your own like this. Yes, you are an immigrant in a new country. For me it was double immigrant since I literally AM an immigrant. But that immigrant status is incredibly intoxicating too. When you have no one to lean on except yourself, you discover how incredibly strong you are. It’s like jumping off a cliff, only to discover you have wings!

Best of luck to you. Don’t marry this fellow just yet. You said it yourself. You have other things to focus on now. If he’s the one, he’ll still be there after the degree and the new job. If he isn’t, well, you’re young enough to find someone else.

This is a rare situation; frum parents who want their daughter to marry a secular boyfriend. They must be very open-minded, and in that case, I believe it would be best to work out a path which would suit the goals of all of them, such as promising that she will build a family, but only after she gets her degree and she is settled with a job. In case they insist she has to marry him NOW, I agree with the posek, money is not life, but a soul mate is (supposed to be) forever.
However, her parents seem to be warm, understanding people, and they just want to see a little nachas from their precious daughter, I hardly believe their real intention is to use it as another tactic to lure her back to a frum lifestyle, and certainly they don’t do it for their public image, an unmarried daughter is not as bad as a secular son in law. Just my opinion.

The parents may be trying to rush the marriage to the secular Jewish guy because the possibility of them breaking up and the daughter ending up with a non-Jew in the future is so much worse to them.

Just tell them you’d appreciate the money but you aren’t ready to commmit – how much you appreciate their love, support & concern blah blah blah – maybe you’ll end up getting a few dollars, even if not the whole apartment.

I too am with Posek on this.
Another important point which no-one has mentioned is that since this “arrangement” will likely not be executed in a legal contract enforceable at law, the “conditions” for the money will always be changing, moving in one direction of course. Not necessarily because your parents are bad people, but because they are human, and that’s the way these things tend to go. I say don’t give up one iota of your freedom!

Exactly, Kaf. But I’m also uncomfortable with suggestions that you hoodwink your parents. Your parents sound like decent people. But they are trying to manipulate you. I know that sounds oxymoronic but that’s our parents. This is as good as it gets. They are open minded enough, at least, to accept that which they know they cannot change.

Don’t do it back to them. Don’t play that game. If you aren’t ready to accept their terms (and as I advised, don’t do it, treasure your newly found freedom), don’t manipulate them back. Thank them for their generosity, politely turn down the offer, keep the relationship but stay true to yourself.

I am inclined to go with the don’t negotiate and keep all your freedom. I would also advise you to read abandoning edens blog and maybe contact her , I realize your parents are very different , but I think she has a lot of wisdom in these areas , and would be a useful resource.

Yup, I’m in the “posek” column too…Don’t “sell your soul” to the devil! Lol, I’m sure your parents aren’t really devilish, but the result is kinda the same – they’ll always have that to hold over you if you accept money now and give them that control. And as the posek says, where will it go from there?

P.S. I agree with Velvel regarding Abandoning Eden. Her blog is SO excellent, and I find her to be a really inspirational example of a true ‘OTD success story’.

So I guess I’ve been overruled, but I still think she should go get the money. She’s not selling her sould, she’s making a small fake wedding in order to get the money so she can get on her feet… After she gets the apartment and degree she can then stand alone on her feet, having the tools to create her own destiny… And firmly flip her parents the bird.

Justin, yea, I guess you’ve been overruled :(. You make an interesting point, but I for one, don’t think this young woman should be flipping her parents the bird. My parents don’t have much money. They helped out other children. Not me. I’m still very kind to my mother (father is deceased). Is that fair? Am I a wimp? No and no.

Take the high road. Don’t flip the parents the bird. As parents go, they aren’t ogres. There’s that fine balance. Where you don’t capitulate. Where you stand your ground. But stand high on it.

Justin — I haven’t chimed in because I think it’s a complicated issue, and very much depends on the specific situation. Without knowing more details, I’d be inclined to side with the Posek; don’t allow yourself to be bullied with disingenuous offers of support.

I know a fellow whose parents offered him 100K to let his beard grow back and to show up in shul every morning. He refused it, and I couldn’t help being awed by his ability to do so. Granted, he didn’t lack for much, as his parents hadn’t cut him off so harshly. But that’s a nice chunk o’ change to refuse for a principle.

But I think your points are absolutely valid if indeed the situation is like the one you describe. As may of us know, OTD people often live in excruciatingly tough financial situations. I know people who’ve lived on stale bread and peanut butter for days, who spent nights on the subways, who froze their asses off in the dead of winter without heat in their apartments. I know of a woman who had no money or resources to get food that she was eventually hospitalized for malnutrition. Many, many others go through similarly severe situations, and it can affect people psychologically as much as materially. In such cases, I would totally agree with you; they should take advantage of the offer. Especially considering that the parents are callous enough to withhold their support for essential life needs, despite having the means to provide that support.

J. — If your mother was wealthy and you were literally starving for weeks, months on end, and she refused to help, would you still be so kind to her? If so, I wonder if it’s warranted.

As Shulum says, each situation is unique. I quote the words in the Shaileh, “…student loans, but their financial support would be a HUGE help.” I think this situation is closer to the desperate OTDers that Shulum describes then to the other extreme, the “well off” OTDer who refuses the 100 G (In which case I agree he should not accept the money)

J. you say “Take the high road. Don’t flip the parents the bird. As parents go, they aren’t ogres.” You’re right, they’re not purposefully awful, but their actions are awful, how they are not unconditionally loving their child. To me that is ogre-like. It’s NOT ok. You say take the high road, but by doing so, you let them know it’s kinda ok how they are acting. Again, its NOT ok. And the we must flip the bird and let people know what they are doing is not ok. Yes, I hope at some point this girl can be a balanced adult and maybe have a meaningful relationship with her parents. But for now I still believe she should do what it takes to get set up in her life. And yes, she should flip the bird, letting her parents know it’s not cool how they treat her. And only then, after A.) she is a self-supporting adult; and B.) She has let her parents know that unconditional love is not ok and that they must accept her for who she is; then, she can she begin building a relationship with them.

“I know people who’ve lived on stale bread and peanut butter for days, who spent nights on the subways, who froze their asses off in the dead of winter without heat in their apartments. I know of a woman who had no money or resources to get food that she was eventually hospitalized for malnutrition.”
Are they open minded OTD’s or religious fanatics?

Siyum — can you elaborate?

Shulem asks: “J. — If your mother was wealthy and you were literally starving for weeks, months on end, and she refused to help, would you still be so kind to her? If so, I wonder if it’s warranted.”

Shulem, it’s a complicated issue. My mother and I have had a tortured relationship and I’m trying to mend fences now, in the last chapter of her life. I’ve always been intrigued by the Ten Commandment, honor your mother and father. We are not commanded (if you so subscribe) to love, only to honor. I don’t have to love her, only to honor her. The point is not to shove a “commandment” down anyone’s throat here, just analyzing.

I didn’t love my mother for most of my life. She was mean and at times, a terrible mother. I often say I’m a lot kinder to her than I should be because she’s a Holocaust survivor and I understand the terrible suffering she endured. That is the leeway. Not wealth or lack thereof, but her circumstances.

Many years have gone by and mother is quite old now. It is a form of healing for me to have a relationship with her now. Her nastiness is less now. When it escalates, I leave. And I don’t return for months.

I did endure starvation. I never starved for months on end because I’m rather hardscrabble and always managed to find some sort of job. It got harder when I finally broke into my field. It was competitive and opportunities were few but I no longer wanted that office job to make up the difference. As you’ve noted, it’s pretty hard being alone and so painfully self-reliant.

Mother has no money so she didn’t attempt to lure me back with financial incentives. If she were wealthy, I still would not have accepted those conditions. Would I still continue to be kind to her today? As said, wealth is not not the sticking point, her Holocaust history is.

Justin argues: “You say take the high road, but by doing so, you let them know it’s kinda ok how they are acting. Again, its NOT ok. And the we must flip the bird and let people know what they are doing is not ok.”

It’s NOT okay. That’s why you refuse the offer. Because it ISN’T okay. The refusal is the message. That it’s not okay. Taking the high road doesn’t mean capitulating. Quite the opposite. Hold your head up high and walk away. From the offer.

You say yourself you are not ready. So there you have it. It took me a few years to feel ready. But yes, you will feel ready one day. Divorce is no fun for anyone. On that day, when u get married, i hope you have peace of mind and a content heart that you are in the right place at the right time.

And I dont get some of this advice about pretending like you married the guy but you are really not married. Huh? Why would you want that confusion in your life? Stay focused. It seems that your parents are interfering with your focus.

As far as I’m concerned, there are only two legitimate reasons to get married:

1. to please the parents
2. for legal status

If you want to please the parents but find the legal status inconvenient, then do the religious farce and pass on the legal docs.

“And I dont get some of this advice about pretending like you married the guy but you are really not married. Huh? Why would you want that confusion in your life? Stay focused. It seems that your parents are interfering with your focus.”

I completely agree with Gabriella here, to reiterate my point. If not for the honesty factor, at least for the focus one. Actually one begets the other. Playing a game could cause this young woman to lose focus. Pretending to be married in order to snare some cash? Just pulling that off takes an inordinate amount of work, and yes, she’d lose focus on her goals. Hardly the skill set needed to begin a new marriage. Put that energy into the degree, the job, friends, the guy. I crack myself up when I notice I put the guy last!

I have no idea why everyone needs to unleash their inner hippy to give advice here.
Its very simple. Religion provides rules. Those rules are legitimate because God, the creator, says they are. Finished. That means marriage is the right context for having sex and being in love. Finished.
Atheists say that there are no rules and we make them all up. In which case, do whatever the fuck you want. Its all made up anyway. That means there is not right and wrong time for anything at all.

Make up your own mind. Thats all you have anyway. why would you listen to someone else’s “experience”. Its not yours. Its entirely subjective, and remember that most of the people commenting here are off the derech people, the most confused and broken people on the planet, which is a further reason not to listen.

Off the derech people are all hurt by their dad, mum, or rebbe. Some of them are philosophers (like reb sholem deene), but still sound really confused most of the time. But most are just a bit hurt, and dont have the requisite testicles to just get the fuck on with it.

WHatever you do, whether its marry the guy now and take the money, or treat yourself with the incredible sensitivity that you need and dont marry him, in the end this is what is going to happen. You will eat the bacon, celebrate your freedom from the awful shackles of archaic religion, graduate that incredible bastion of intellectual accomplishment, college (Yeah right), join the workforce, and then begin to realize deeply that the society you joined is far less true than the one you left, far more abusive, far more perverse and small minded, and far more archaic. Pay back your loans to the machine, pay your taxes to the machine, be programmed by tv from the machine and balance the cc debt that they need you to have to keep you docile.
And you think Rabbis have too much power!
Soon you will oook up at the heavens and realize that the teacher that told you to just calm down 10 years ago was right. That giving up your way when you were 17 and hormonal as a beast and unable to think straight simply for a bit of dick and a short skirt, for the freedom of eating macdonalds shit and dancing in a club wasnt really worth it when you really understand …..but now you are divorced from your porn addict hubby and need to work so why bother.

enjoy yourself. Ive been there for while now. catch you on the flipside!

I seem to be the only one who found the following sentence remarkable:

“To be honest, while I tell my boyfriend I love him, and I mean it when I say it, I don’t see us being married, at least not yet.”

If she’s been dating this guy for at least a year and still doesn’t see herself being married to him, or “at least not yet,” she needs to cut this guy loose and either start looking for another boyfriend, or forgetting the whole “boyfriend project” for a while and concentrating her energies instead on what she’s going to do career-wise in a job market that looks quite tough for the foreseeable future.

If you’ve been seriously dating someone for a year and still can’t imagine yourself being married to that person, you’re doing yourself and your partner a huge disservice by hanging around.

Dems da rules of the secular world. You wanna live by ‘em? You gotta play by ‘em. Especially in NYC where marriageable young women *far outnumber* marriageable young men. In other words, this young woman’s “shelf life” is briefer than that of the young man she’s dating.

If this guy isn’t her bashayrt, she needs to dump him, concentrate on her education and career, and decide what kind of guy is going to be a good match for the sort of life she wants to live.

Mommy and Daddy and the big bucks and the apartment are only red herrings.

Der Bik: How ludicrous. The girl could be only 21 and barely scratched the surface of life. “Dems da rules of the secular world.” Oh really??!! Sorry, i think you know little about average secular people in new york. People date for years and don’t marry. Especially not before their late 20’s/early 30’s.

Sorry, Chezzy.

Da stats don’t lie. “People” may date “for years” without marrying. But if they end up NOT marrying, especially in NYC, it’s far more difficult for the woman to find a marriageable partner than it is for the man.

Especially when you’re talking middle- and upper-middle-class prospects.

Bryn Mawr, Wellesley, Barnard, Smith, Mount Holyoke…each year they churn out a brand-new cohort of fresh-faced marriageable young women with a lot on the ball. Ditto for the other Big Names. Thousands of them pouring into NYC with a single-male population that’s fairly skewed toward being a single *gay” male population.

Marriageable females *far outnumber* marriageable males in NYC.

Unless you’ve got some wildly romantic notion of marriage and what makes a marriage viable, seriously dating someone for a whole year is plenty time for knowing whether your partner is someone you want to marry. And that’s true not only in NYC, but anywhere.

Der Bik: dude, you’re so street, you got me rolling over here. As in ROTFLMAO

All they are asking for is not to have premarital sex!
Why is it that baalei teshuva can honour and respect their parents for saving their lives saving them from starvation etc. etc. and giving them the best life according to their understanding(everyone agrees they didnt do it because they hate you ) but you cant do them this favour for all the money in the worlds.forget the pain forget the humiliation THEIR ASKING NOT TO HAVE SEX . nu nu..

As I said originally, this is all about virginity. But in all probability, they probably already have.

Old Man, to elaborate on your point, it’s not just virginity. It’s unwed pregnancy they’re really afraid of. Frankly, any parent of a young adult child is, to some degree. We don’t pressure our daughters to marry their boyfriends, we just try to have conservations about sex with them.

They’re probably desperate for you to marry someone Jewish. Your boyfriend is Jewish so they’re thinking now is their chance to nudge you to tie the knot and be married to a Jewish guy. I can understand them but they shouldn’t be putting you under such pressure.

Right. That’s the crux of it too. He’s Jewish. I give them some begrudging credit. The other day, my older sister remarked how I was always three steps ahead of our parents. At age 17, they were bugging me to marry a Chassidish boy and I was thinking Litvish. When they jumped on the Litvish bandwagon, I was thinking Modern Orthodox. By the time they were suggesting Chabad (Chabad! Can you imagine?) I was secretly plotting college. My sister commented ruefully that had they met me where I was at age 18, I’d be in a very different place.

From my perspective, I thank my lucky stars. I narrowly escaped the Litvish trap and went on to pursue the life I wanted. Are things perfect for me? Hell, no. But I married a very smart, kind and ethical man with an Ivy League degree. Am I an elitist snob? Hardly. But even my family has a sense of humor.

I once overheard my brother bragging to some men at a niece’s wedding that his sister’s husband is married to an Ivy League graduate with a graduate degree from an

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