The Wrong Questions
Fruma Biegeleisen2010[First Person]
I take a deep breath. I mustn’t seem too excited. I run a comb through my sheitel again and check the car mirror. Pretty pearl earrings, neatly styled wig. Modest, attractive, reasonable. Above all, I want to look reasonable. My husband and I are driving over to the rav’s home. He comes highly recommended for sholom bayis issues and he agreed to see us tonight, even though it is almost Tishrei and he must be incredibly busy.
A smile sneaks up on me and I quickly look out the car window. It is okay to be hopeful, I tell myself, to be nervous, to look forward to my husband’s apologies on the way home, but I can’t make it too obvious. That would be insensitive, crass even. I imagine the rav kindly explaining that sholom bayis is more important than anything and that a husband’s main goal should be to preserve the relationship, above all else. He will emphatically repeat that last part, above all else. Maybe the rav will be more forceful, more specific. Maybe he will explain that cursing out your wife about Triangle-K-hechsher frozen vegetables in front of the kids is more of a problem than eating the vegetables themselves. Maybe he will explain that sending out email requests for pictures of girls in their panties is more of a problem than my bobby socks and knee-length skirts. That pas akum pretzels and cholov akum coffee are not issues to threaten divorce over. That questioning whether the Sun literally argued with the Moon in the first week of creation does not make your wife an apikorus. That more bees are caught with honey, or however that saying goes. A balloon of satisfaction and vengeance grows greedily within me as the images pile up, one on top of the other, but I kill it fast. Can’t be too arrogant, too presumptive, too eager.
We pull up to the house and he turns off the engine. “Are you okay?” he asks. I take another breath. I must remember to be kind and understanding and make him feel better after this is all over. He takes my hand and slowly runs his own over it. “Listen. I think this might not go the way you want it to.” He is just getting defensive, worried. That is to be expected, I think. Men are like that. I smile brightly and cover his hand with my own. “We will get through this, honey. Don’t worry. It will all work out. Let’s go.”
The house is quiet and elegant. The rav is sitting behind a large desk in his study. Seforim shranks line the walls and you can almost touch the serenity. There are two plush chairs in front of the desk and we sit down. The rav’s voice is quiet, soothing, just as I imagined. He turns to my husband. “What can I help you with today?” he asks.
My husband shifts in the chair and begins. “We are having some sholom bayis issues. We were hoping the Rav could advise us. There are some things… my wife has become more meikil in some areas. She does not want to keep certain things anymore.” Silence. The rav is thinking and the clock is ticking and my heart is pounding.
He turns to me. “Okay. You do not want to keep some things anymore. Tell me. What authority do you accept? Do you accept the Shulchan Aruch?” I am confused momentarily. Why is he asking this? No, I think to myself, I do not accept the authority of the Shulchan Aruch. The Shulchan Aruch says many things that not everyone keeps. My husband does not keep quite a few of the things the Shulchan Aruch lists, especially the zera levatala chapters. I do not keep cholov yisroel and that is in the Shulchan Aruch. Gentiles should be saved on shabbos only if not doing so will place Jewish lives at risk and that is also in the Shulchan Aruch. I do not accept the Shulchan Aruch, but what does that have to do with anything? I shake my head and the Rav’s eyes widen.
“The gemara then? Do you accept the authority of the gemara?” I shake my head. The gemara is full of crazy sayings, earthquakes are caused by sodomy, pregnant women mustn’t eat cucumbers and melons. How can I accept the authority of the gemara? But why is he asking me this? My mind goes into overdrive and I can’t think fast enough. How is this relevant? Why isn’t he asking about what problems we are having? Why is he asking me these ridiculous questions about authority? When are we going to talk about pas yisroel? Cholov akum? Sholom Bayis?
“The chumash? Do you accept upon yourself the authority of the chumash?” I shake my head again, defiantly this time. The chumash says that a rapist must pay a fine, that a virgin must show her bloody sheets, that a woman’s vow is cancelled by her husband or father. I do not accept the authority of the chumash, but at this point, tears start rolling down my cheeks and I bite my lower lip. Why is he asking all of this, all the wrong questions? Is he going to ask the right questions soon?
The rav stands up and sighs. He looks at both of us and I look down at my lap, not willing to meet his eyes. My denim skirt has little swirly designs and flowers. I try to focus on the patterns. He shakes his head. “I am sorry. I cannot help you. There is nothing I can do.” His voice is soft and gentle and it crashes all over me with the force of a fatal tidal wave, a deadly tsunami. He cannot help us. This is what I imagine oncologists say to terminally ill patients, not what a sholom bayis rav says to a wife. Biting my lip doesn’t work anymore and my shoulders start shaking. I try to squelch the sobs, but I can’t. Some people can control their tears well but I am not one of them. It is humiliating and I hate myself for breaking down. I press my fist in my mouth as a last attempt. The two men, my husband and my rabbi, watch me carefully and they are silent. The waves of pity are palpable, they surround me, strangle me, I cannot push them back. I take a deep breath once and once again.
The rav turns to my husband and speaks, slowly, haltingly. “Look, I don’t know how to help, but if she is being good and religious, maybe you can give her a reward. Maybe you can buy her something, buy her a dress. A nice dress for Yom Tov. ” My husband nods his head, I think. I cannot see well for all the tears in my eyes. I guess I will have a new wardrobe soon, with all those lovely dresses I have earned. This is too surreal for me and I stand up, choking on my words. “Thank you. I am sorry to have taken your time.” The rav nods sadly and walks us to the front door. The serenity and silence mock me as I fumble for the doorknob. I cannot get out quickly enough and walk out first, leaving them behind to their mutual mumbles of sympathy and encouragement.
In the car, my husband takes my hand. I cannot speak, so he begins. “We will get through this, honey. It will be okay. It will all work out.” I turn away, towards the window and take another deep breath but this time, there is not enough air in the car, not enough air in the world to fill my lungs.
87 Responses
There will be others more knowledgeable than I with more to say, but this story is heartbreaking.
Ah, yes, going to the rov or rebbe. The last refuge of the exasperated spouse. I recall when my poor suffering wife schlepped me arois to my rebbi.
I, too, did not get the answer I was expecting.
While things worked out, more or less, it was as a result of our mutual hard work. My smooth talking salesman-like skillz didn’t hurt, either.
I think the trick is to keep going to rabbunim until you get the answer you want. It helps to be rich.
“The rav turns to my husband and speaks, slowly, haltingly. “Look, I don’t know how to help, but if she is being good and religious, maybe you can give her a reward. Maybe you can buy her something, buy her a dress. A nice dress for Yom Tov. ””
it’s THAT attitude that makes me so ill. the idea that women are property, that women are children, that women are owned and can be bought off–it’s nauseating. i don’t care how it’s taught–even basic stuff like “oh, women are actually on a HIGHER level than men” (ahem, bullshit, only because what rabbi who says this ACTUALLY believes this????)–it’s all crap.
i can only imagine how many conversations with THE ROV go like the one written about above.
what i find most disturbing about unpious (generally speaking) is that for all of my personal reasons to be otd, i keep finding more and more reasons to add to my already long list. (thanks!!!!)
so sad how you, the abused wife appears to the rav as the “bad” less frum one while your abusive & selfish rapist of a husband is the “tzaddik” who “nebach” is married to an apikorus like you. so sad & twisted :(.
again, i beg of you to get the help you need from people who will care, not rabbanim who will side with your “wonderful” husband but a therapist who can hear your story objectively & help you become empowered as was suggested in your other article yesterday.
Sad but beautiful, Fruma.
Fruma,
Let me preface this comment by saying that I don’t question the veracity of your stories. I believe they both can happen. What confuses me, is how they can happen to someone like you.
There is a recurring pattern in both of your stories. You are extremely passive, submissive, and the archetypal victim.
Telling your rabbi that you don’t believe in the fundamentals of your religion can come from either a very gutsy or naive personality. (Or a combination of both; guts driven by naiveté.)
Fruma, you don’t come across as being a very feisty person. I imagine you would put up a better fight if you were.
Naive, very sheltered and innocent perhaps?
You don’t fit that personality profile either, being so self guided and an original thinker that you can reject the only reality you’ve been exposed to
And, you know *exactly* in both posts, what to tell your readers, and what to write for optimal shock value.
I understand that people can’t be compartmentalized, and that personalities are complex.
Your personality comes across as more unique than most.
” Fruma, you don’t come across as being a very feisty person. I imagine you would put up a better fight if you were.”
That was meant as an observation, and not as criticism.
I absolutely agree with HT, and I couldn’t have said it better. While I believe that these stories are entirely possible, (although in all likelihood a bit embellished, not to say that there is anything wrong with that), the question remains why in heaven’s name would Fruma just take it like that.
Perhaps she feels it is useless to try and change things. Shouldn’t the so called “sholom bayis” specialist be able to discern what the problem really is? Shouldn’t he know how to get to the underlying issues? If he is as clueless as it seems, why should she bother at all?
Fruma, back in another life I did a lot of work on domestic violence and sexual assault – published a paper or two, taught for ten years, worked the crisis lines and a few other things.
Thank the Name you’ve found your voice. You were never taught how to set limits. You were never taught to say “No” much less “Hell No!” What you learned was obedience and silence. But in spite of that you know what’s wrong and are able to tell us. You do it courageously and eloquently.
Your posts were profoundly disturbing. They have all the hallmarks of a long-term psychologically and physically abusive relationship. Start with “most of the time he’s sweet and loving” but sometimes he screams and threatens to divorce you over trivial things. And it goes on. “We tried counseling, but I just couldn’t say what was in my heart. I came off looking bad or crazy, and he seemed so concerned and so good.”
The people who should be supporting you are being turned against you. The rabbi you respect doesn’t understand and has already reduced you to a type, a Bad Girl whose marriage is in trouble because she isn’t observant enough. He’s doing exactly what your husband wants but not what you need. I’d bet a year’s rent your family – if you’ve tried to talk to them – is full of advice about how you should do whatever it takes to make him happy. And you’ve become isolated from a lot of your old friends.
You are in a dangerous situation right now. It’s dangerous for you. You’re already taking damage every single day even if it doesn’t leave blood or bruises. But what happens when the yelling and sexual abuse escalate to throwing things at the wall? And then at you? And when it isn’t coffee cups but a slap or a punch?
It’s dangerous for your children. Your sons are learning it’s alright to be loud, threatening and abusive to the women in their lives. Your daughters are learning to sit down, shut up and take it because nobody will help them.
There is more I would like to say, but I don’t know if it’s appropriate in a public forum. If you think it is, please say so.
kafhakela and Hozen T,
You can’t believe a woman would be in a situation like this? Why not? It happens all the time. Every single day. And women with a lot more resources than Fruma feel they have no choice but to sit there and take it.
You’re surprised she can write like this to strangers but not talk to her family, her friends, her rabbi? Again, you probably haven’t had to deal with situations like this all that often.
Abusive relationships don’t appear out of thin air. Most of the time they sneak up on you, little by little, a step at a time.
It can be hard to recognize from the inside. And after she can say it to herself, it’s easier to tell strangers than to confront her husband, tell off the rabbi for being blind as a post or endure the whip-sawing she expects from her family for being a bad wife and a bad Jew.
No. It’s all too easy to believe. This isn’t a Chassidic thing. It’s not a Jewish thing. It’s a human thing. You don’t have treat her like she’s betraying the community or attacking Jews. She’s a woman in the same bad situation as millions of other women down through the ages.
Well said, Todd. I find Fruma’s tales eminently plausible. It’s not hard to imagine even the most strong-willed, well-spoken, clearheaded people finding themselves in situations where they’re suddenly tongue-tied and meek. Maybe not a person with a super-aggressive personality, but even those — you’d be surprised. As Todd said, it creeps up on you. And you can feel completely lost for not knowing when, how, and where the strong and assertive you took off and left you stunned and speechless. I’ve seen it happen. Ain’t so hard to believe.
Todd and HR;
You misunderstood me. Where do you see in my comment that I do not believe that it is plausible? I am just suggesting a reason why Fruma’s response, or lack of thereof, was what it was.
as always your writing is brilliant.
Kaf — I wasn’t actually referring to your comment per se, although re-reading I do see that it applies. I more specifically had HT’s comment in mind. Apologies, though, if I misunderstood you. I meant only to address the general tone in which some commenters expressed confusion or bafflement (and HT did say she was “confused,” to which you gave a virtual nod) at how a situation like this one can come about. I only meant to point out that I bear no such confusion. I’ve seen it happen. I understand the phenomenon.
Todd, you absolutely misconstrued what I wrote, and totally did not get my point.
Perhaps I need to perfect my writing skills, and maybe you need to improve your critical reading skills.
Fruma
First of all, the rabbi is an idiot. Let’s just call a spade a spade. He’s dishing out marriage advice when he hasn’t got a clue. Frankly, he should be put in jail and fined for false advertising and for rabbinic malpractice. I’m sure his misrepresentation of himself as someone who actually knows something is against the shulchan aruch somewhere.
Second of all, your husband is an abuser. He is a classic manipulative, lying, cheating, raping, controlling abuser. You should not have to live your life with him. You are a good, decent person and you deserve a good, decent happy life. You do not deserve to be abused. Even if he is ‘sometimes’ sweet, that doesn’t mean anything. The cycles of ‘sweet-abusive-repentant’ are classic abusive patterns. READ Lenore Walker on this subject. She will help you understand your life.
Unfortunately, you are not alone. One out of every seven Jewish women is living in an abusive marriage. And the rabbi-charlatans out there have succeeded in quashing the spirits of many good women.
You should know that abused women stay with their abusers for an average of 2-4 years. But among Jewish women, abused women stay for 8-12 years. Why? Why do Jewish women think that this is normal? I think a lot of it has to do with rabbis like this, and with exchanges like this.
IT IS NOT YOUR FAULT! This is abuse, period.
I highly suggest that you seek real help — WITHOUT your husband. As Todd said, you need someone to listen and hear your story and guide you in rebuilding your life and your person.
B’vracha,
Elana
A meek woman, completly submissive to her husband, stupid enough to be unable to voice her own opinions, yet smart enough to write about her life in a detached manner, almost like an observer, critically and rather assertively and with far too much knowledge over what is taught where.
Yet again, stuff in these tales just doesn’t gel.
But once again, I will leave my obligatory sympathies to the writer if it is true.
My comments as to the gist of the article, a Rabbi isn’t a know it all. They’re human beings just like the rest of us, good at some things and bad at others. The one in this story is obviously a rotten marriage counsellor. The reflection is only on his expertise, not his title.
HoezenT:
Your personality comes across as more unique than most.
Or more likely, a figment of somebody’s imagination.
I’m totally with HT and frummer on this.
why on heavens earth can’t you just open you mouth fruma?? Why when the rabbi asked if you’d take the shulchen orech as higher authority, why didn’t you just fire back with passion ” and zera levatule is permitted by the shulchen orech? And emailing girls, does that Reb Yosef Karo allow? Why why why? Why the damn silence???? Your husband would’ve been dumbfounded and that would’ve opened the full picture to this rav or anyone you’d turn to.
my deepest symphaty to you fruma.
for many people, it is easier to put words on paper than it is to speak one’s mind. this is why people keep journals and diaries and why very often, upon reading those journals and diaries, the reader is shocked to find out that there is so much more to the person than meets the eye.
what i don’t understand is why, on a site where writers are encouraged to write (whether fiction, fictionalized, non-fiction) are we constantly judging the experiences of those reflected in these stories, essays and personal narratives.
the beauty of writing is being able to say the things we cannot say in “real life.” do you think that poe was going around discussing the creative plotting of various murders? did dante really live in hell? however, sylvia plath’s writing is clearly autobiographical and confessional.surely, she found a degree of comfort and courage in using the pen (which, as cliche would have it, is mightier than the sword), which, i can assure you, is felt by many who post on this site.
rather than rip these pieces apart in terms of legitimacy, we need to realize that even in fiction, there is truth, but we also need to recognize that for many who have gone off the derech, personal experiences may very well be “stranger than fiction.”
Emily:
for many who have gone off the derech, personal experiences may very well be “stranger than fiction.
I’ve said many times that I strongly believe that generally it is individuals with “issues” who go OTD. Regular people stay on the straight and narrow.
The problem is not Yiddishkeit or even Chassidus.
The real issue is the issues of the ones with issues.
Ken mir einer zugin, fin vee iz der anale b’hipich oisiyos aroisgekruchen?
Emily,
It’s not the writing I am questioning. It’s the contradictory thoughts behind the words.
Frummer, assuming that what you are saying is true, that doesn’t prove anything, and to be honest, I have no clue what you’re trying to say.
I can only talk for myself, that the reason I am “on the straight and narrow”, is very possibly only because I calculated that the costs of leaving are not worth it. That calculation might be made conciously or subconciously, but it definitely plays a huge in why people “without issues” tend to not to rock the boat.
“Or more likely, a figment of somebody’s imagination.”
Frummer,
After her last post, Fruma commended and told us that her stories aren’t fiction.
Unlike you, I don’t believe in conspiracy theories. I don’t believe that Fruma is OTD and just made these stories up so that frum people look bad.
If these were works of fiction, she could say so, and still be acknowledged for her creative talent. Why would she insist that it isn’t fiction, if it was?
I believe her story, I just don’t understand it. And that’s ok. Just because I don’t understand something, doesn’t mean it didn’t or couldn’t happen.
After her last post, Fruma commended and told us that her stories aren’t fiction.
Unlike you, I don’t believe in conspiracy theories. I don’t believe that Fruma is OTD and just made these stories up so that frum people look bad.
If these were works of fiction, she could say so, and still be acknowledged for her creative talent. Why would she insist that it isn’t fiction, if it was?
I believe her story, I just don’t understand it. And that’s ok. Just because I don’t understand something, doesn’t mean it didn’t or couldn’t happen.
HoezenT:
I believe her story, I just don’t understand it. And that’s ok. Just because I don’t understand something, doesn’t mean it didn’t or couldn’t happen.
I believe her. Sure I do. Anything is possible. And further, if she says she is real then she must be right? I mean, she says so!
But, her contradictory emotions and actions make me suspect that her stories are construed to elicit responses regarding certain subjects. Glaring as they are, these unexplained inconsistencies cannot be ignored.
BTW, I actually believe in the moon landings. I also believe that Kennedy was shot by his wife.
Reminds me of the blog “cukoo’s nest” that was shut down all of a sudden…
I was very sad when this happened, but I was at a loss about what to do…
kafhakela:
the reason I am “on the straight and narrow”, is very possibly only because I calculated that the costs of leaving are not worth it. That calculation might be made conciously or subconciously, but it definitely plays a huge in why people “without issues” tend to not to rock the boat.
My point exactly. Their issues rock the boat. Either your’s are not big enough to tip the scales towards extended emotional heartache, or you are level headed enough to keep things in perspective, i.e. you are not letting your issues throw you overboard.
You still confused? It’s Ok. I’m sometimes not sure what I’m saying either.
kafhakela:
Ich farshtei nisht danne Yiddish
frummer,
“I’ve said many times that I strongly believe that generally it is individuals with “issues” who go OTD. Regular people stay on the straight and narrow.”
i wonder if the jewish immigrants to the US circa 1880-1914 would agree with you on this point. of over two million jews who came over, i wonder how many remained orthodox. having grown up (not orthodox) in an extremely jewish area, i’d say that there were hundreds of families practicing non-odox judaism whose grandparents and great grandparents gave up orthodoxy during those waves of immigration. what is your authority in judging all of those jews of previous generations as people with issues?
and do tell, what is your feeling regarding bt’s who go back to odoxy after several generations of non-odoxy, and then go back to non-orthodox expressions of judaism?
please clarify your position and your authority on this subject. what kind of issues are we talking about?
Emily:
I’m talking about today’s generation, and even that is only based on my own observations and friendships with those who have gone or are going OTD, as well as my own personal experiences. I have no idea what went on back the turn of the century.
I’m far from authoritative, very far in fact, but I seem to recall that Rabbi Horowitz says much the same thing.
I have absolutly no experience with BT’s who become ex BT’s so I have no opinion on the matter.
Issues can take many shapes and forms. Essentially, I believe that you generally won’t find somebody going OTD who is a happy go lucky kind of guy, and only “going off” because of theological reasons. Not in todays world. Today, issues are the issue. “My Tatty, Mummy, Bobby, Zaidy, Rebbe, Teacher, Shaitel Macher…The fault is anybody elses just not mine”.
Dear Fruma
I am heartbroken by your two stories.
And I believe every single bit of it.
I am sorry for all the incredulous and patronizing comments you got.
Thanks to all the commentators who showed support. They also spoke in my name.
And *soppose* you were correct, Frummer, what exactly does that prove?
If I told you that in some indigenous tribe somewhere in South America, only the people with *issues* wanted to leave, would you then start believing in the medicine man?
Their medicine man is crazy only to you. Just as crazy as our Rabbis are to them.
frummer,
it is important to realize that each person’s experience is very different and that while two people may lead parallel existences, they may not be having the same experiences. of course there will be people who leave because of bad experiences within their families, communities, etc., but that doesn’t negate the fact that there are plenty of people who are leaving for theological and scientific reasons. i do know several people who have left for those reasons. however, it is really about the individual. many with “issues” stay, but some don’t. many who disagree theologically will stay so as not to “rock the boat” but there are those who feel more comfortable leaving, rather than living a lie. and then there are those, like fruma, who may feel like she has to stay and who loses her voice in situations like these. she knows she’s being violated but something (perhaps years of social conditioning)stops her from coming forward.
personally, i am an otd bt. i’m not sure where that puts me on the “issues” scale.
of course, i’d rather not know.
Ah Frummer, thank you, thank you for saying that.
F.G.;
“I am sorry for all the incredulous and patronizing comments you got.”
Other than Frummer, where do you see incredulous and patronizing comments? We are just having a hard time understanding it, that’s all.
“Ah Frummer, thank you, thank you for saying that.”
You had me on the floor with that, ha ha.
Lack of discretion aside, I find the Rov’s response entirely appropriate under the circumstances. Consider that she professed to being a Kofer of both Torah Sh’Bal Peh and Torah Sh’Bichsav. That being so, what kind of guidance could he possibly offer from a Torah perspective? What she (and by extension) he need is a marriage counselor who could help them without referencing religion. Most rabbis are not in that position. This post should be titled “The Wrong Therapist” IMO.
Lefk:
she professed to being a Kofer of both Torah Sh’Bal Peh and Torah Sh’Bichsav.
That was easy. Whats the big deal confessing that ones is a “koifer” through and through to a polite and friendly Rav? But to tell one’s husband to stop doing acting his “sado machisdik” dreams on her, nah, that she can’t do.
What she (and by extension) he need is a marriage counselor who could help them without referencing religion. Most rabbis are not in that position.
Kinda echoes what I said earlier.
When I say stuff, some call me “incredulous and patronizing” and others critisize me for having an opinion at all. Poor me.
That’s one of the dangers of taking “Da’as Torah” too seriously. Spending a life reading Talmud and Shulan Aruch means you’re an expert in the minutiae of religious law. It does not make you any wiser than the average person about anything else. Less perhaps, since you are likely to reject any information that doesn’t come straight out of those books.
Emily
personally, i am an otd bt. i’m not sure where that puts me on the “issues” scale
I don’t think one can place an FFB who goes OTD in the same boat as an OTD BT. Just one example, a BT’s boat is goona be rocked far less when they go OTD than that of a FFB. They can simply fall back into their old life.
I am actually a very feisty person and I stand up for myself very well most of the time. Most people who know me in real life would also not believe anything I have written, so some of you are in good company.
But like HR said, people generally have more than one facet to their personality. When the person you are married to is disappointed and upset that you are the one who changed, you are the one who broke the deal and became less religious after marriage, there is not much to say in your defense. Sure, I could answer back and go on and on about how I didn’t exactly get what I thought I was getting either when I got married, but what is the point? How is that going to help? It just ends up a big fight with two people yelling at each other and we walk away with our views unchanged. At some point you realize that nothing you say will make any difference.
He says that shalom bayis takes a backseat to issues in halacha and I haven’t been able to find a rav that he respects to tell him otherwise. According to him, his issues are mistakes or accidents or whatever, not blatant disregard for Torah, which is what I am apparently demonstrating. We’ve been to counselors, but b/c he doesn’t respect them like he does with rabbonim, he stops going.
Insider- I would have never said anything to the rav about the emails and the porn. That would humiliate my husband and it would be something I could never undo. That kind of thing gets around a community very fast and we have kids.
Todd- I am not married to an abusive man. Ha-ha, I know that’s the typical line from an abused woman, but really I am not. Maybe he’s a bit controlling and he yells sometimes and I don’t resist as well as I could, but he is not a horrible person. He’s a good person, very kind and supportive in many ways and perhaps my writing doesn’t show enough of that. People are complicated.
Wow, here’s a whole lot of writing about a story none of us but the author know anything about. All we’re doing is projecting our own frustrations and disappointments upon the author or her represented husband or Rabbi.
To look more generally then:
I think most of us would be better off if we knew our place. Believing every motivational feel-good aphorism about what we’re entitled to and we could be is often quite harmful. To believe that the fault lies not in ourselves but in our stars and that the fault is rectifiable via emigration to lands under other skies tends to make many people less happy and stuck in less happy relationships than they would otherwise be.
The benefit of having an Authority, be he a husband, a parent, a teacher, a Rav, a psychiatrist, a Guru or a circus clown is that you no longer suffer from doubt and worries that your life or relationship would be better “if only…”
Sadly, i personally have a hard time with submittance. I’m a baal gayvah par exelence and hold myself in way too huge esteem for my own good. Our author may suffer similarly, but “suffer” is the right term to use.
On a societal level everyone carping at the frum world for their obeisance to omniscient Rabbanim – or even for their “husband knows best” maxims is making a mistake if they’re speaking internally (from within the frum world) or expressing a bold faced lie if speaking from without. Those living in the non-frum world who speak about the evils of frum submittance to silly authority are engaging in nothing but self-satisfactory masturbatory congratulations. They know they’re lying. Being stuck with some pretty okay option is far better than being attacked with endless options and doubts. The freieh world offers no panacea and you (the generic “you” of everyone reading this including myself) – You’d be better off knowing your goddamn place.
Just a little Twerskian* social science to brighten your day
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*Amos Tversky that is, also see (the non-Punevicher) Kahanaman – now there’s some comparisons for Baal Dvarim’s next article! Also for Baal, review the contrasts between all of the gdoilim and their Professor kids – Abramsky, Sarna, Shach, etc, etc, etc. In most cases I think you’d find (relevant both to my comment above as well as to my comment on Baal’s piece) that the Juniors expanded the world’s knowledge and culture but that their newfound freedoms did them fewer favors in their personal lives and that THEIR kids suffered even more greatly. Baalei Tshuvah know the score and leave Fromm behind for their Escape From Freedom into the world of frum. Yeehaw!)
Yes, writing for a bunch of knowledgeable autodidacts is fun but if you wanted to be REALLY impressive/pretentious Baal, you shoulda noted him as Samuel LANGHORNE Clemens, or did you feel that would give away the hint?
” According to him, his issues are mistakes or accidents or whatever, not blatant disregard for Torah, which is what I am apparently demonstrating. We’ve been to counselors, but b/c he doesn’t respect them like he does with rabbonim, he stops going.”
and:
“I would have never said anything to the rav about the emails and the porn. That would humiliate my husband and it would be something I could never undo. That kind of thing gets around a community very fast and we have kids”
Fruma,
Why then did you go to a “Rav” in the first place?
Furthermore, If you were not going to bring up his misdeeds – contrary to what you illustrated before how you were sitting in the car celebrating in your mind his defeat, which indicated that you DID plan on bringing it up – because you did not want to humiliate him, why did you go? if you were not going to present your side of the story, what was the point??? just to sit there and be degraded and humiliated?
I wasn’t preparing to “present my side of the story” because I am not a tattle-tale and the rav is not my morah. I thought the rav would ask the right questions and the important issues would be discussed by all of us. The porn and the emails did not even have to be mentioned. I would have been happy had the rav just explained that shalom bayis was more important than CY or pas akum. I would have been happy had the rav said, you know what, you need to give in more on CY and she needs to give in more on not questioning midrashim in front of the children or vise-versa.
I was caught totally off guard by the authority questions and then the dismissal.
I hear.
I wish you the best of luck in working this out with him. I’m no counselor but IMHO I would suggest you stop questioning Midrashim or say things which annoy him, live your life, hold your thoughts and beliefs to yourself or release them by expressing it through your gift of writing, either here or wherever. “Live it double” as a lot do these days.
This is the second article I read from you, Fruma, and I think you are full of it. SO I think. Hey, everyone is entitled to his opinion.
It also occurs to me that you aren’t a female. Very few chasidishe females know and can spew the torah and Halacha you have mentioned. No matter how much time you spend on the web. However, you are probably some sorry, depressed, trapped and angry yingerman who needs a place to vent his angst with the system. Which is fine. Just be honest about it.
Again, just my opinion.
Any Rov, I mean ANY Rov, knows what kind of problems the average couple is going thru. And there are a lot of idiots out there, including rabbonim idiots, however, none would be that stupid and lecture you without giving you the time and opportunity to respond and talk like a mentch and discuss your problems.
You want to make choizek or poke fun at how close-minded or messed up your husband (or society) is? Fine, but don’t spin it into a tale of going for shalom bayis counseling.
P.S. I did not read any other comments or responses, before I posted mine.
Some Guy From BP,
I just want to make sure I understand your comment correctly. You doubt this story and find it unlikely that a frum man could ever be this condescending and derogatory towards women because all the women that you know are too ignorant and stupid to ever write anything like this. Is that right?
Some Guy,
If you did not read the comments, please go back and do so.
And Fruma, you don’t need to respond to him, you have done enough clarifying, were very forthcoming, and things are starting to make sense.
I agree with Insider that you should keep your thoughts to yourself, as most of us here do, do as you like when he isn’t around, “submit” to “The Authorities” when he is around, and you will hopefully be fine. I am in the same exact situation. I have my doubts, but it just makes sense for me, for many reasons, to live a double life… I go a little further, and even when she or others don’t know what I am doing, I still keep קלה כחמורה, (except for big time חמורות… or not…), I just find I get more peace of mind this way, and besides, there always is a chance of Rabbinic Judaism being “right”. That works for me.
I also want to say, and this I can say authoritatively as a Rabbinic scholar, (and not as a member in the Unpious club), that you are correct in your assertion that sholom bayis supersedes most issurim, let alone such minor infractions, if at all, as CY and Pas Akum. (Supercedes meaning in this context that it is not sufficient reason to not treat you with honor, love, and dignity, and not that he would need to commit those issurim rather than get divorced.) As a matter of fact, I am personally very close with a well respected and choshive rov, and his wife does some things which he tells people is forbidden, and he told me that he told his wife his opinion, she doesn’t want to listen, and he has no obligation whatsoever to divorce her over it. So, they don’t talk about it, and they have a wonderful marriage!
I once heard from an old-time ingerisher ruv, a Satmarer talmid, still from the European generation, that when you look for a son-in-law, you should search for the best bochur in yeshiva. Once you’re married, as long as he keeps shabbos and puts on tefilin every day, he sees no reason to get divorced.
This story sounds true, but not recent. At least, I hope Rabbis nowadays are a bit wiser. I saw something like this in an Avigdor Miller book: if a husband hits his wife he should buy her a diamond. My dad would never say something like that (although i can never be sure…. he has disappointed at times). I think even my granpa wouldn’t, despite being an old sephardi.
To the “issues” dude;
I think the Rabbi and the husband here both have some heavy duty issues.
It’s almost a cliche in therapy already that the one to seek help tends to be the healthiest of them all.
Unless, in your book, only being miserable qualifies as “issues.” Making someone else miserable? that’s frumkeit. That’s the straight and narrow.
Kiss;
I am extremely familiar with R’ Avigdor Miller’s works, and I have gone to countless of his Thursday night shiurim, and I believe that you must be quoting him out of context.
Some Guy, I would suggest you read the Rubiyatt of Omar Khayam, especially one passage.
“Comes the caravan the dog barks.
The caravan passes, the dog remains.”
For the person who said that this doesn’t seem plausible, you obviously haven’t had the experience of growing through hardship and then looking back on the experience with a sense of clarity.
I’m quoting as I remember but as it was near 10 years ago I admit my memory may be fuzzy about it
Some of the frum commenters here (Kafhakela, Frummer etc) are so stupid it’s disgraceful. There’s gotta be something to do about offensive comments from frummies and zealots on a non-frum site.
OTD — Let’s not get personal.
The best reaction to comments by frum people is a rational and sound response. (Or you can ignore it too; that’s also an option, and sometimes more beneficial to one’s health…)
Additionally, it should be noted that we welcome comments of all kinds as long as they are not gratuitously insulting. And personally, I happen to like frummy comments. I guess I miss their kind of thinking. I’m sentimental that way…
(I should also note that both Kaf and Frummer have contributed valuable insight to the discussion, and I for one appreciate their presence for it.)
HR, thanks.
OTD, Is the purpose of this website to be one big rant against chasidim, or is it to have an honest an open dialogue, analyzing the issues objectively. I thought it was the latter, if I am wrong, then you’re right, I don’t belong here, and I have no interest in being here. I don’t want to start a personal squabble here, but I truly believe that I try to be as objective and intellectually honest as I can, whereas you have no objectivity whatsoever. This is all I will say.
I should also add that it practically was a “kiddush hashem” how AW and Baal Devarim were able to have serious discussion, without it getting personal and antagonistic. I would think that that is what this website is all about.
kafhakela:
Is the purpose of this website to be one big rant against chasidim
Is it anything but? It’s carathic. Get everything off your chest!
And let’s not forget, the more one bashes others, the less one has to look at the real issues within oneself. I think you will find that it is a recurring theme in articles written by OTD bloggers. In my opinion (if certain commenters here permit me to have one) their articles will always be trashing the society they came from (or at least contain an element of it).
OTD:
It’s never a good sign when somebody resorts to ad hominem.
HR:
You are clearly very comfortable with your new skin. Perhaps you haven’t even changed all that much. I’m gonna go out on a limb here…. I’d hazard a guess that the more forceful responders are somewhat less so.
Cue strong and forceful denials………..
On another matter, I am puzzled how come you suddenly have a glut of new, yet talented writers all on the same sort of subject matter, within the very short time span that you’ve been open for business.
“Is it anything but? It’s carathic. Get everything off your chest!”
I don’t agree with that statement. Granted, there are certain elements on here that have that attitude, but for the most part I find that this website is a platform for serious debate and discussion of issues pertaining to “chassidim on the fringe”, exactly as it is billed.
I’m getting personal? Kafhakela called me “angry” a few days ago and has yet to apologize for it. Right now he called me “completely lacking in objectivity.” Ad hominem much?
I’m simply tired of these pompous assholes spending all day on a rebel site convincing everyone how frum they are. And how wonderful thei world is, and oh-so-not-like-how-all-these-anggggry-sensationalist-kofrim describe-it! Why would the average reader of a non-frum site care for these views? Do frum sites tolerate dissenting opinions by OTDers?
For some, serious debate translates to: the author is exaggerating! The author is not a real person! She said she has a bunch of kids so how could she have the time to write a post? MUST BE a forgery!
And they say *I’m* paranoid about Garnel…
OTD:
Do frum sites tolerate dissenting opinions by OTDers?
No they don’t, and they are within their rights to do so. It’s their house and they can run things just they way they want to. The editors of this site could do the same.
But then you would be just like the silly site which goes by the name “The Yeshiva World”. Only in reverse.
kafhakela:
I don’t agree with you. If they are all completly OTD and done with it, then why bother debating a lost cause, one they have no truck with? Why bother setting up a website to “debate the issues”?
A famous line by (the suposedly anti semetic) William Shakespeare comes to mind: “The lady doth protest too much”
OTD:
Surely you accept that there is a just a slight difference between saying somebody is angry/lacking in objectivity and calling them stupid?
If I may go slightly off topic here for a mo….(at the risk of a pointed comment from HoeznT!
)
“UK’s Muslim TV: Wives must not refuse sex with spouse”
(http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23818856-uks-muslim-tv-wives-must-not-refuse-sex-with-spouse.do)
It’s probably just as well that we don’t have a TV channel!
FB’s two posts in a nutshell (for those who lack the time or fortitude to muddle through them).
1. Hubby enjoys s&m sessions, but he’s a good guy, really. My closed eyes and neutral expression give no indication whether or not I enjoy said sessions.
2. Hubby and I go to a Rov for marriage counseling. I humiliate the both of us by avowing belief in central tenants of Judaism in a successful, (semi-)conscious attempt to derail said effort at counseling. Oh, did I mention hubby’s a good guy, a really, really good guy?
Kaf:
“Is the purpose of this website to be one big rant against chasidim, or is it to have an honest an open dialogue, analyzing the issues objectively.”
It is the latter. Or more precisely, the point is to have an open platform for disccusing matters that can’t be discussed elsewhere, especially with the focus on Chasidish culture.
It is also a platform for writers and authors with talent to publish material — thought-provoking, creative, entertaining, touching, or analytical — that can’t be published elsewhere. Yes, we celebrate irreverence, and we love a bit of cynicism and snark. That doesn’t mean we’re hateful or blind to other opinions.
OTD: I understand your frustrations. You should be aware though that not all people fall into neat categories. Anyone who visits this site (hell, anyone who uses the Internet) is to a degree — however slight — open to engaging with others. “Maaneh rach, meishiv cheimah,” some wise old man once said (probably sometime during the period of the Persian empire
), and if you’re attacked personally, a calm and measured response goes farther than a counter ad-hominem. Hey, respond wisely and you may yet convert Frummer to your side. 
But even if not, civil discourse has merit for its own reasons.
Frummer:
“You are clearly very comfortable with your new skin. Perhaps you haven’t even changed all that much. I’m gonna go out on a limb here…. I’d hazard a guess that the more forceful responders are somewhat less so.”
I have changed. Those who know me know my transformation. And I’m not un-angry or completely lacking in resentment toward the chasidish world. It is only natural.
My lack of belief came long ago, and was a pure result of newly acquired knowledge and a lot of intellectual/philosophical torment. The decision to leave was an entirely different matter. That choice was unpopular (both to those who were affected and those mikveh veikers who have an opinion on everything) and it was made for deeply personal reasons. It is the aftermath of that struggle that left me scarred.
But the insinuation that people who leave have “issues,” well… a major life transformation will almost certainly indicate unhappiness of some sort with one’s previous life. But I’m not sure that necessarily indicates the kind of “issues” you refer to. You may know some OTDs, but you can’t possibly know them all, so it would be prudent to refrain from overly broad generalizations. Here in NYC there’s a sizable grop of OTDs that would most assuredly not fit the profile you portray. It is a safe assumption that those with “issues” will be more vocal, occasionally obnoxious, and remain conspicuously “issue-laden,” while those without will often move on in a quiet unassuming way. Some (perhaps most), of course, are somewhere in between. Recognizing the nuances and subtleties in the different types that make up the OTD phenomenon is crucial for having a real grasp on its driving forces.
(As an aside, lest it isn’t obvious, the fact that OTDs were formerly unhappy says nothing about the truth or beauty of the frum world. Au contraire. It shows that its underlying truths aren’t the primary factors in keeping its adherents but their level of contentedness living that lifestyle. If indeed those who leave were unhappy and those who stay are blissfully content, that only shows that the emotional factor is the guiding principle for all — both those who leave and those who stay — and not its truth claims, its ideological supremacy, or its “beauty.”)
Oh, and Frummer:
“I don’t agree with you. If they are all completly OTD and done with it, then why bother debating a lost cause, one they have no truck with? Why bother setting up a website to “debate the issues”?”
The Chasidish world is still my world. Even though I’ve left it in body and soul, there is a degree to which I will always remain attached. That attachment is not for my anger towards it, but for the deep affection I have for the culture that shaped me and in which I gained much of value.
Having said that, the purpose of this site is decidedly not to “debate the issues,” although that is certainly a welcome side-endeavor. The comments section, while lively and engaging, is not its raison d’etre. The purpose is to publish posts unpublishable elsewhere, with exposure that is greater than that of a personal blog; the comments are a mere reflection of the degree to which those posts touch the readers.
HR;
“It is the latter. Or more precisely, the point is to have an open platform for disccusing matters that can’t be discussed elsewhere, especially with the focus on Chasidish culture…
Having said that, the purpose of this site is decidedly not to “debate the issues,” although that is certainly a welcome side-endeavor.”
Can you clarify your position in regard to these two statements? Are you differentiating between discussion and debate?
Thank you.
Kaf: Perhaps they overlap. But I meant “discussion” similar to any conversation one would have with like-minded friends, etc. And “debate” as that between individuals of opposite mind. Admittedly, the delineation isn’t that clearly defined.
In any case, we’re not very strict on what goes on in the comments. Posts by listed authors are submissions we’ve selected, vetted, and sometimes edited. The comments are pretty much a free-for-all, with very few limitations. Whatever works.
HR:
Loads of very interesting lomdos although sometimes lightly contradictory statements. Very interesting and insightful, but I don’t have the time to respond in detail. Erev Pesach as I’m sure u appreciate.
One thing you ignored was my question which I will now spell out, where did all this glut of great writers suddenly come from? Where were they all until now? Do all OTD’s take writing courses?
Frummer:
“where did all this glut of great writers suddenly come from? Where were they all until now? Do all OTD’s take writing courses?”
We continue to have have a serious dearth of quality writers from within our ranks. But I’ll take it as a compliment that you think what we’ve achieved is noteworthy.
You should know as well as I do that there are some anomalies. Your writing isn’t half bad — if I can indulge a compliment. From your side of the pond alone we also know of Shaygetz and Pen. (Admittedly, the former has yet to contribute, but he’s been invited.) It stands to reason, then, that in a place like NYC, the pool would be somewhat greater, even if still very small. And luckily, we’ve managed to attract a nice percentage of those with some halfway decent writing skill.
Also note that a good number of our writers are female, who’ve had somewhat better training, and of course engage with the written word in English a lot more than men.
Having said that, we do NEED more quality writers. And so if you’d like to send a submission, it would be quite welcome.
HR,
I’m appalled you don’t point out the simple and obvious answer; this is the first time people can “contribute”. Having your own blog carries the extra burden of constantly communicating new ideas and reflections to keep your audience engaged, which are reserved for the uber creative who vibrate with new ideas on a steady basis.
Insider — Indeed, that too is true. There are many out there with talent who just don’t have the time and/or energy to maintain creative outlets of their own.
Those who have the creative ability to write, but don’t toe the line, have precious few outlets. Mainstream publications are obviously not the place to publish material that is only relevant to our sector, and our own internal publications have censorship boards that would put China and North Korea to shame.
As someone who hasn’t written a blog post in more than four years, and whose weltanschauung has changed in those years, I was very excited about this new endeavor. Since my friend had three posts accepted and published here, I have been itching to write as well. Unfortunately none of my attempts so far would have passed HR’s (or my own I guess) quality filters.
I do still hope to one day soon submit an essay I’m proud of and I look forward to the lively comments that I hope it will bring…
(Mental note to self: Don’t post essay during a holiday season when Frummer won’t have time to join the conversation.)
I didn’t realize Unpious is practicing quality control, and I don’t think it should. Amateurs need an outlet too, and as HR pointed out, there is nothing else available either to the right or to the left. Of course, readers shouldn’t be burdened with poor writing when they come around here looking for the quality they got used to. Nonetheless, already Unpious is featuring six categories, will a seventh do harm?
Fruma,
I sincerely believe that you should stand up for yourself a little more often( although i agree with you that you should not humiliate him – and he shouldn’t do the same to you). I don’t know much about your situation, but from your posts it is clear that what you are feeling is valid. In fact, I think that all these rules that are being imposed on you are what caused you to feel some sort of resentment towards Judaism. (I say this from experience). Its hard to accept all the rules in Judaism , I dont think anyone follows the shulchan aruch fully (this is not to say that people dont try to), but that does not meant that you don’t accept the authority of it. I think that explaining to your husband that if he wants you to follow these laws FULLY , he should too. I personally believe that your husband is being hypocritical by telling you to keep cholov yisroel while he watches porn. I personally would not stand for it.maybe next time you go to a rav about shalom bayis issues you should explain this to him.
furthermore, i think your husband is using his excuse of “not respecting certain rabbonim” to his advantage. it seems to me that he may only want to see rabonim whom he believes would take his side. My question is: do you respect these rabonim? because if you dont, then there is no point in going to them for advice. the fact that you dont respect these rabonim may drive you to resent their advice even though they can have valid points – although i dont agree whatsoever with what the rav in your post said. In fact it bothers me a lot to know that someone would even imply that one should buy gifts for his wife ” when she is good”.
my point in all this is: you should make your opinions and feelings more clear, and maybe let your husband know that in the religious aspect you just need to get there on your own instead of being forced.
Interesting point that Frummer notes, of the many talented OTD chasidic writers, I had been curious about that myself. Perhaps, it’s the cart before the horse. It’s not that OTDers go out and develop great writing skills(though some might). It’s those Chassidim who have a better level of education in the first might be the ones who go OTD.
FB
I really sympathize with your plight. I wish you all the best.
I would like to shed some light here on an issue which might be of more interest to the unpious community living within (still… “leshunu habuuh biyirishulayim!”)
It may indeed be a pain and an extreme injustice with the Rabbi not listening to her side of the story. She almost doesn’t exist. Well, the Rabbi has no point in listening. The very fact that she is an apostate will put any believing Rabbi in a serious predicament.
The talibanist Judaism that is followed in our community gives a person such as Fruma no rights as a human being (skip the quid pro quo under the threat of aivah). The only reason that she is to be pitied, is an assumption that she actually believes in the ‘Sages’ more than she professes to. Or, that fighting all out will make the father lose the kids…
On the other hand, the husband, although he is immoral and sinful, is still a fellow Jew. He wins hands down. The Rabbi will never take the side of the woman in such a case.
In the words of Ayaan Hirsi Ali, the problems with Islam are from those following the religion correctly. Same for chareidizm.
Whythe: I think you hit the nail on the head, and I think that’s primarily the point FB was trying to make, rather than induce the pity-party comments. It’s true, some rabbis might feel they have their hands tied, and that’s precisely the point: while lip service is given to the importance of sholom bayis, the rabbi will turn it into an inquisition about her beliefs, even if the issues that brought them there were minor (cholov yisroel, Triangle K hechsher on vegetables, etc.).
Rebel:
Fruma is rather pointing to the emotional side of the story. Where fundamentalism meets humanity. Where they clash. Indeed masterfully crafted. The point was so well hidden in plain view, in the real life scenario, that in all the comments above there was no analysis, or not even notation, of the perspective of the Rabbi.
In a way she is mirroring the fear many of us live with in the community. Whilst we crave leaving, we are cowed into submission. We fear losing, in the eyes of everybody we grew up with, our legitimacy to live.
On the other hand, if Fruma was to properly understand the context of the Rabbi’s behavior, she would be able to manipulate it much better.
” Interesting point that Frummer notes, of the many talented OTD chasidic writers, I had been curious about that myself. Perhaps, it’s the cart before the horse. It’s not that OTDers go out and develop great writing skills(though some might). It’s those Chassidim who have a better level of education in the first might be the ones who go OTD. ”
Or perhaps, there are more chasidim going OTD for
primarily intellectual reasons than the Rabbi Horowitz’s of the world would want to acknowledge.
Or, Chasidim of a higher cognitive caliber, those who have the inherent intellectual capacity and critical thinking skills to question the status quo, those are the ones who typically feel disenfranchised and disenchanted by the chasidic lifestyle.
Those are the ones writing and commenting on Unpious.
First time I am on this site,
and this is the first story I read, its so true
but the stories are endless as are the problems and hypocrisies.
I have one question for all of you out there:
does it ever end? does the pain ever really go away? Are you ever consoled over having lost the better part of your life to some social cess pool? Do you ever feel a real sense of peace?
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