Tznius vs. Playboy
FreiFem2011I am deeply troubled by modern culture’s over-sexualization of girls and women. In American society, women and girls are frequently reduced to objects for men to desire, judge and pursue (while, paradoxically, female sexual expression is denied). Libraries of books and millions of articles have explored this idea further (check out the basics of Sexual Objectification and this Redbook article on the sexualization of girls for starters).
Tznius, the laws of modesty as interpreted by the Charedi community, govern and restrict women’s dress, behavior and place in society, based on an explicit set of laws that define women’s subservience to men in that culture.
Unpious reader J. recently commented:
“A culture that treats women as sex objects is just as misogynist as one who has them all covered up. Both treat women as objects for their own pleasure and power.”
Personally, I find both cultures troublesome, but I think modern culture is clearly the lesser of the two evils: at least in secular society there is awareness of the problem amongst some, efforts to combat it, amongst some, a far wider range of actions one could take in reaction, and many options in terms of lifestyle and community that will expose one to more or less of this problem.
What do you all think? Are these two sets of cultural mores equivalent?
21 Responses
I know you will probably just mock what I am about to write. But with Hashem’s help hopefully my words will be accepted favorably. If anyone would like to discuss this more in depth I would be glad to speak privately.
The comparison Freifem is making is profoundly absurd. There are several basic ideas about tznius which are often misunderstood.
There are a few major reasons for tznious laws:
-The nature of men is completely sexually charged at all times. Ex: Harchokos which might seem extreme such as not passing dishes to one another during times of niddah, yichud laws etc… All of these laws are based on Chazal’s undertanding of men’s real sexual nature. A man is sexually interested 24/7. Even at funerals the gemara tells us! That is the way men were created. It is their nature. Monogamy for a man is totally unnatural. When a man chooses to marry and live monogamously he is cutting off a huge chunk of his natural instincts for sexual outlets.
It is a wonderful and holy thing when a man is able to do this and form a deep loving bond of marriage with only one women. Nonetheless, this man’s wife should stand up and cheer for his achievement. It is a MAJOR achievement. No joke here at all.
This is why the concept of marriage without Yiras Hashem and a drive for spiritual growth is totally foolish. It is amazing that non-religious people even attempt this type of monogamous relationship.
I know many women reading this will now start throwing things at their computer. But that is the nature of men and all honest men will agree. They just won’t discuss it with their wives.
Other reasons for Tznious is to have do with precisely the opposite of the secular world. The point is to de-sexualize women in public so that they are not seen as sex objects but rather as real people. When one walks around uncovered it is a sign that the person is more physical than spiritual. More body than mind. Our goal as Jews is to develop and refine our neshama more so than our body. We do not take our bodies with us to the next world–only our souls. True Torah women are dignified and classy. Oddly enough and surprising to many, the most dignified and classy looking frum Jews nowadays are precisely CHASSIDISHE women! They wear SHABBOS clothes during the week. They are regal, elegant, Bnos Melachim and a real credit to the Jewish people. May Hashem bless these great women with nachas from their families!!!
Perhaps one of the deepest reasons for tznious and one which many overlook is the idea of “tznious c’emunah.” There is a deep emunah/belief in the constant supervision of Hashem when we are mindful of tznious. This one of the reasons why both women and men are advised to be tznious even in the privacy of our own bedrooms. It helps to maintain a constant consciousness of Hashem.
The great concept of Tznius is that WE have learn to gain consciousness that WE are standing at all times in front of Hashem. Tznious is one of the main things that helps one gain this level of consciousness. Gaining this consciousness is the greatest goal of life.
One must strongly realize that the essence of Tznious is not at all because our bodies are dirty or repulsive to Hashem. Our bodies are beautiful and they are Hashems greatest creation. Thinking negatively about our bodies and our sexual natures is the furthest idea from the truth of Torah. It is called Christianity 101.
There is much more to write. I hope my words are helpful to all!
With love and blessings to all!
EMES ROCKER
An idiotic comment. Women have sex drives that are as strong if not stronger than men. The frummers are terrified that a woman might assert her nature so they work so hard with phony rules to subjugate women. Read Dr. Mary Jane sherfey on the sexual capacity of woman and how men are terrified by it and try to subjugate it.
Emmes Rocker can say what he wants, but would UNPIOUS please install a block feature? Why don’t you just move over to Aish.com where they appreciate that kind of stuff?
Re the original question, it seems to me that the secular society is by far the better one. There is a key difference: in secular society women might be expected to behave in certain ways, but that is as far as it goes. A women can freely choose her lifestyle without being severely sanctioned for it, whereas in the Charedi community the women have no choice whatsoever in the matter, and violation of those clear cut rules is basically considered a crime, with harsh and formal repercussions.
To me that is a huge difference.
they try to keep the woman so busy with cleaning and cooking and raising children so that the women will have no time and energy to beautify themselves and express their sexuality.
i always wonder at the sculptures from ancient history where the human body is exposed and revealed as a true work of art and beauty, the question is what (any form of) art is intended to do, and if the goal is to entice and gratify male pleasure then it is trully degrading for a woman.
When a woman is expressing herself and what she likes about herself it is wonderful and gives her a confidence that she deserves.
Both objectify women. Both feel that the purpose of women is to satisfy men’s desires. But the chareidi community goes further, by blaming women for attracting men’s attention. They tell women to cover up their seductiveness lest they cause a man to stumble in sin. They tell women in is their fault when men have perverse thoughts in their presence. They objectify women and then place all responsibility for this sexulaization back onto the women.
While “western” society allows women to express/expose themselves in public and also exploits that exposure for titillation and profit, it also encourages and allows women to “be all they can be”, regardless of how they dress. Playboy (in it’s “glory days”) would have been the kind of nexus where you can see pictures of naked women, but would also do a profile/interview of a female head of state or CEO. Recall how magazines being sent to the Persian Gulf during Desert Storm had to have pictures of women altered for “tzniut”? Well, in some of those countries, women are not allowed to drive or speak for themselves. The equivalency of “Playboy” vs. “tzniut” (not in its basic form, that people should be “modest”, but taken to its extreme) is false.
I don’t understand how the laws of tznius in regards to modest dress are being compared to the opposite extreme of scantily clad or immodestly dressed women. How are these both a way to subjugate women? Chassidic men are not dressed any less restrictively. There may be a problem of secular values permeating the Jewish community and being overly focused on the image or appearance of women.
The modest dress doesn’t work, frum men just get excited by things that would hardly rate the attention of a secular man. While it might take a woman in a very low cut blouse or tight skirt to arouse a secular man to distraction, frum men seem to be inordinately easily distracted. If an ankle in a thin stocking is arousing, there really isn’t anywhere else for the women to go, except maybe a burka. Meanwhile the women are layered in too much clothing for the weather, suffering from severe vitamin D deficiency from lack of sun and trying to maintain marital attractiveness with shaved heads. And they are afraid to speak or sing lest they distract men who ought to be able to control their attention. If modern men can deal with an ankle or a song, so ought to frum men. No need to go so far as Playboy, there is a lot of middle ground.
the sick part in the frum world is that they start this brainwashing at the age of 8 or younger! Imagine what telling an 8 year old that she must cover herself up does to that poor child!! and her male siblings! The sexualization of minors is truly disgusting.
in addition, when you constantly tell boys and young men that seeing a knee or elbow is assur, etc. what happens when they are at the grocery store? or at the mall? or walking dow the street? It is sick what that kind of sexualization does to someone. and it sticks with them their entire life
What you call sick, I call training for Kedusha.
The Jewish people have a different standard to live up to. All of us fail sometimes but that does not mean we give in and just act like all those around us. We are trying to live spiritual lives filled with d’veykus to Hashem and fill our hearts and minds with His Torah and Mitzvos. That is very difficult to do when you lower yourself to the sexual mores of the nations around us. We have a special relationship. A special gift. A special closeness to G-d which is our greatest privilege.
We are training our children to not just be consumed with the life of the body but to instead be consumed with the life of the soul. The body will eventually become food for worm and maggots. The soul is eternal.
To make this concept more real–have you ever noticed how you are never totally fulfilled in this world? Your soul is not totally comfortable here because it is beyond this place. It was sent down from a lofty totally spiritual place down to a world full of McDonalds drive throughs and shopping malls. It can’t really relate to this scene. Think about this…
We do not want our men or women to be all Guf (“Goofy”–shoresh is Guf) and no neshama. At the same time we do not deny the basic human sexual desire but rather just try and channel it into Kiddushin. It is called Kiddushin and not marraige because it is kadosh. It is an essential part of life and one that the Torah encourages greatly. Even the most physical aspects of our lives can become kadosh. It is truly beautiful, mystical and holy when done according to the wisdom of our sages. It is so holy that it is the means to bring a neshama down to this world.
I realize that living in modern society is a major challenge. We are asked to be the exact opposite of all the world around us. The exact opposite of everything on MTV and in every movie. Yet this is the area that truly defines the Jewish people. The essence of the Jew is kedusha. The essence of the Umos Haolam is pritzus. It is not easy. It is a challenge. But if you choose to try and grow in holiness you will be helped from Above. This has been personally tried and tested by yours truly.
You can mock this all you want but at the end of the day when you are dancing with joy at your grandchildren’s chasunas you can thank me. (or better yet, invite me!)
With love and strength to all my friends,
EMES ROCKER
Rocker,
“you lower yourself to the sexual mores of the nations around us.”
“just be consumed with the life of the body ”
“all Guf (“Goofy”–shoresh is Guf) and no neshama”
these are all false dichotomies. you see what you are doing here? you say either you are full blown charedi crazy covered up tsnius separate the sexes wacko, or you are a menuval. THOSE ARE NOT THE ONLY 2 CHOICES!
“essence of the Jew is kedusha. The essence of the Umos Haolam is pritzus.”
this is part of your flaw – you think goyim are inherently pritzus and that is a darn shame you feel that 99.9% of the world is disgusting but you have the one true path to holiness. again we see racism and mysogony of religion. sick indeed.
“It is called Kiddushin and not marraige because it is kadosh”
other people and religions view marriage with sanctity and holiness.
“have you ever noticed how you are never totally fulfilled in this world”
i have no idea what this even means.
Emes Rocker, you rock! beautifly written. You’ve spoken the truth from a Torah perspective. I too, am willing to discuss and debate this matter further with both sides in private, please email me.
Thank you
Faygee,
FrumCouple@yahoo.com
Emes presents us with a perfect illustration of extremism. Any measure, no matter how oppressive or demeaning, is justified in the name of holiness. Moderation, a talmudic value that permeates Jewish learning and history, is treated with disdain. Any inclination towards leniency or rational judgement within an halachic framework is condemned and its advocates are reviled. So it’s really no surprise that advocates of this paradigm see the world outside their insular and xenophobic community as a corrupting influence.
Emws Rocker says:
“It is called Kiddushin and not marraige because it is kadosh.”
That is false. It is called Kiddushin because one is separating the woman from society-in the sense that she can no longer marry anyone else.
You are raising a good point, but confusing it by oversimplifying the issue as two groups. In reality, there are multiple opposing forces at work in both camps, secular and religious.
A better analysis would come from defining the progressive and regressive elements in both, and then comparing their respective power and effectiveness.
CriticV says:
Emes Rocker says: “It is called Kiddushin and not marraige because it is kadosh.” That is false. It is called Kiddushin because one is separating the woman from society-in the sense that she can no longer marry anyone else.
The above statement by emes rocker is typical for what I call the pop judaism of today. Totally false bull shit that passes as the beauty of judaism and is propagated by “women’s speakers (אוי לו למי שבניו נקיבות) and kiruv professionals to make judaism palatable and “meaningful” to the ignorant. Marriage is as kadosh as prostitution, same root same meaning. Betcha they didn’t teach you that in Bais Yakov.
What you are saying is true. There is a lot of pop Judaism out there and I also don’t care for it.
What I meant was that Kiddushin is the act of being mikadaish the woman. Separating her from other men and building a home together with her. That is the kedusha I was referring to.
Kedusha means separate. When we mikadaish something we separate it from mundane use. When we say in Shemonah Esrai “Atah Kadosh, v’ shem’cha Kadosh”…we are referring to G-d as Kadosh because He exists separately from everything else. His place is the world but the world is not His place. There is nothing in this world that you can compare to Him.
Tznious is one of the most important ways of creating the bond of separateness for the couple. “I am for my beloved and she is for me”. It is about creating a oneness, a wholeness, a closeness that exists only between these two people.
We also know on a deeper level that this is a micro version of the marraige that exists between G-d and the Jewish people…
Chag Somayach and Gut Yuntif to all,
EMES ROCKER
Let me just mention one point. On one hand women today feel that they have the right to work alongside men in all professions and situations. On the other hand women become hysterically angry when their husbands have sex with other women – women who work alongside their husbands.
Is there something a little bit contradictory here?
jacob stein, why cant women and men work side by side without engaging in sex? especially if one or both are married to others? I am married and have worked along side women for years, and have never once run into such problems.
I took my wife to Mea Shearim. She was stunned when men shielded their eyes so as not to look at her. I explained that the men feel that they are equal to the women and vice versa. This is for the protection of both.
I have a partial solution: for one week the women sit behind the mechitza, with the men in front. The next week, the men sit behind the mechitza with the momen in front.
That is true equality.
yes, jacob stein, but only if you think that working alongside females inevitably requires you to cheat on your wife. Sad.