Men vs Women
FreiFem2011credit: Runs With Scissors
A friend and I were discussing Girls Night Out. “It happens,” she said, “but it is not common that a woman has that experience. It’s much more often the men who are out partying – although mostly without their wives’ knowledge.”
I think she may be right. There are definitely much more men than women in the group of people I know who have left the religious community – and the group I know that are in the community living double lives. But I do wonder what the real numbers are. Maybe there are as many women as men, but women, for some reason, are more quiet about their rebellion or less likely to be able to act out, or to get completely out? Maybe the daily responsibilities of children sap them of their ability to explore as much as their male counterparts can? A lot of the men I know who live double lives, use work to facilitate their “explorations” – business trips, and business contacts. Maybe that gives them more opportunity? Most of the women I know who work outside of their homes in the religious community work in very religious environments that offer little wiggle room for exploration. Or maybe it’s the emphasis on “tsnius” – modesty - that acts as a “moat” isolating curious women from their desires, creating a gigantic hurdle if they ever want to act on them, in a way that men don’t have?
Lots of questions, no clear answers. I imagine it would be hard to really know the truth, we have mostly only anecdotal evidence about our own friends and experiences. But any opinions from you all – are more men than women leaving or interested in leaving – and if yes, what are the reasons that make it so?
13 Responses
I think the points you raise are good. I would add that before marriage, at least in my community, chabad, it was a lot easier to be a ‘chassidishe’ girl than boy. Girls have a secular education, can dress fashionably, partake more freely in culture all while maintaining both a good ‘reputation’ and even a self identity as a ‘good girl’.
Guys on the other hand have it much harder. They are not in a formal academic structure with accountability and therefore often lack a basic work ethic and self esteem, never mind marketable skills.
They are also expected to adhere to a stricter standard otherwise they run the risk of being labeled a ‘bum’ . I think that is what compels many of them to eventually begin questioning the fundamentals of their life style and value system.
Like many communities chabad’s standards are very fluid. College which was once an absolute no no is becoming more common and not only for outliers. There are young men who completed the educational system with flying colors, including smicha who are now studying in university. And by no means are they only attending YU and Touro or specifically after marriage.
The same goes for the dress code, kashrus standards, dating, participation in secular culture and more.
I wonder if this will lead to more OTDers or less, my guess is the former.
Chabad, while hardly the bastion of modernity, is a lot more flexible than traditional, or more mainstream Chassidism.
Ok toeh, I would like to address some of your comments because I am/was a lubavitch male, and I think most people who read this website would agree that I am pretty open and fair minded. I believe in lubavitch there is a certain amount of gender stereotyping against men. Many chabad women will say, yeah my husband wouldn’t get how to shop, or cook , or pay the bills. They assume that chabad men are incompetent and don’t understand “the world”. I think this comes from historical gender positions in chabad (men learning, women in the market) but this is not the place to give my full theory on that.
“and therefore often lack a basic work ethic and self esteem, never mind marketable skills.”
You are generalizing, I know a huge number of chabad bochurim who have self esteem , incredible critical thinking skills,and have a basic work ethic. For 7 years they have sat in school for 10 hours and learnt many times for at least an hour STRAIGHT(I assume you will say that does not give you a basic work ethic , and I look forward to understanding your point more). So all they lack (as you said) are marketable skills , which almost all of them could and are capable of acquiring those in university.
just by the way, the rest of what you wrote I completely agree with and even on that one point which I differ, I think with clarification we may very well agree.
FreiFem:
I agree with you. Much to my dismay there does seem to be many more ‘wayward’ males than females.
I don’t disagree with anything anyone else wrote, I would just add that seems to me that leading reasons behind the phenomenon could be (I know it’s anecdotal, but this is what I’ve encountered):
1. Males tend to be more frustrated and unfulfilled with frum life in the first place.
2. Women seem to have an easier time finding outlets for their curiosity and their education is broader and thus more fulfilling (as opposed to boys who are forced to attend schools with a decidedly narrow curriculum which only caters to a select few).
3. It does seem that women find more inherent fulfillment in marriage and family than men do, and this becomes a greater goal that can obscure other pursuits. Should an environment develop where women seek to be professionals for their fulfillment, I suspect that the OTD numbers would spike (to support this theory, it seems to me that girls who are still single past the fashionable marriageable age tend to begin exploring the secular world far more).
4. I also think that it’s harder for a girl to break with her parents than it is for a boy. Therefore, it would seem that this itself holds females in the religious community, and they do their best to find happiness there (and, in truth humans can find happiness anywhere if they really wan to).
Like I said, it’s anecdotal – but so it seems to me…
Thanks all for your comments.
One thing you are reminding me of, is that although all of the ultra-orthodox communities share a lot in common – they are also very different.
The experience of a woman growing up in Crown Heights is very different than a woman growing up in New Square or Lakewood. And a man in Williamsburg faces a very different culture than a man in Monsey or Boro Park.
I would guess that men and women in these different communities face different obstacles and motivations for leaving.
For example, a lot of my female Lubavitch friends seem to have a tremendous amount of freedom in their lives and careers and creative expression – they might be less likely to incur the cost of leaving, in comparison with a woman in New Square who is forced to shave her head and not allowed to drive who might be willing to pay the high cost of leaving becuase she has so little room to breathe in her world.
Valid point.
Perhaps that itself is a reason why less women extract themselves from religious lifestyles: Among Jewish coreligionists there is a greater diversity in attitude when it comes to women than there is for men (Therefore, the total numbers would drop, as various circles allow women more freedom and self-fulfillment)?
Velvel,
See Gutman’s first two points. he is largely concurring with what I said. As to the stereotyping, I don’t believe I said anything of the sort. I know how to shop, cook and pay bills. I said nothing of Lubavtich’s males competency.
Although I do believe that the stereotype is true in many cases. A boy can grow up in yeshiva with no chizuy dihai alma.
This is a discussion in relativity. In other words, many Lubavitch boys manage to interact with a broader world (mivtzoim for one thing). The question is,are they an exception and more importantly is this what they are supposed to be doing? Is it behavior that is sanctioned by their schools, family and society or merely tolerated?
I read the NY Times whenever I came home from yeshiva as well as every novel I could get my hands on even though my secular education came to a grand finale in third grade. My family was somewhat liberal but god help me if I was caught in yeshiva with a book not printed by kehos even though my sister may have had it as an assignment in her Beth Rivka class.
As you wrote “which almost all of them could and are capable of acquiring those in university” exactly my point, they have to go to university as the system itself doesn’t provide it.
Which was was my response to the question posed by Freifem, that in our communities it is more likely for a man to have the need to engage the outside world and once you pop you can’t stop!
The truth is that when it comes to being ‘worldly’ it’s hard to have a discussion about a monolithic form of Lubavitcher as we grow up in vastly different communities.
I am somewhat puzzled by your description of the roots of this stereotype. At which point in Lubavitch history or in which Lubavitch community do the males learn and the females go to ‘market’? On the contrary, it is the man who is away at work and the woman staying at home more often than not, even on shlichus.
I understand I was generalizing, that’s the point of a discussion such as this, to understand patterns.
Thanks for the great discussion!
Toeh I really appreciate you taking the time to respond because it truly is an interesting discussion. Let me preface that looking at everything now i was reading waaaay too much into your words.
You are right to engage in any secular cultural in lubavitch yeshiva is difficult , and I agree that all chabads open mindedness is all an unintended cause , from mivztoyim and shlichus.
My comment about women going to the market and men staying home and learning was in SOME families in russia , before chabad came to America.
Also now that I look back at your comment in context as an answer to freifem’s question , it makes perfect sense and I agree with it .
Thank you.
I don’t want to get into the weeds on this but I think you may be mistaken on the historical/sociological point.
If you are referring to the familys of rabbonim, granted.
But past the alter Rebbe’s chadorim can you name a story or source that points to this phenomena as being part of a culture.
In chabad they dropped it 200 years ago, for the most part. Crown Heights certainly has a fair share of batlonim but other than them, people work for a living.
Have you ever visited kfar chabad or nachla, the communities that best reflect the values and traditions of the Russian Lubavitch, there is not a soul in shul after 8:30 am. Other than the workers, the streets and shops are empty of grown men.
If anything, it was America that changed them.
They’ve got a lot of problems but men learning past marriage, other than a short kolel stint, ain’t one of them.
Such is the thoughts of this layman, non-expert.
The story of Deightch where he went to buy a chicken and got distracted and went to the Rebbe for 3 months etc. Yes I have been to kfar chabad . But I think the fact that the men work is a new thing in America, I do think there were many women who worked in order to allow their husbands to learn.
I always chalked that story up to the fairy tale column, which, by the way, seems to be getting longer and longer for some reason.
Also, wasn’t it with a bottle of oil?
Good talking to you.
It may be a fairy tale but it may also be anecdotal evidence, also if it is a fairy tale then it is interesting that the Deightchs just printed the story.