No Pro’lem

Beautiful. So true, so sad, and so ubiquitous, unfortunately. The yeshiva I went to growing up was not chassidish, but the scenes were almost identical. Caretakers, janitors…hell, even teachers…no one was immune who was not part of the “Chosen” Nation. Interestingly, I sometimes felt almost like the kids’ teasing almost had a jealous quality to it – as if the life of Juan, or whoever, must surely contain all kinds of mysterious, goyishe, and exciting secrets that they were just dying to be let in on. But then reality would take over and Juan reverted to the ‘dirty goy/spic/shvartza,’ that he must be, having not been circumcised…
So sad.

Makes me ashamed to be a Jew.

Great piece.
That is what I was told in Yeshiva. We were also told that eisav sonei es yaakov, and that all goyim would murder Jews if they could get away with it. How sad.

It starts early. My 6 year old recently told that some of her frummie friends were explaining to a secular neighbor’s child that she will be their servant when moshiach comes. The little girl was very confused because she thought slavery was over many many years ago. I can’t imagine what her parents will think when they hear about this from their child.

I once yelled at a grocery manager for treating his Hispanic employee like a piece of shit, I said “you know you are planting roots to antisemitism!” he responded “nah, his grandfather was already an Anti-Semite.” to which I said, “that’s because your grandfather acted like you!”

I have a clear memory of bochurim in yeshiva dumping garbage on the floor in order to make the polish janitor clean it up. I remained silent .

This breaks my heart. and all these comments break my heart. No human being should be treated this way. But I do think this is “Hassidic boy” behavior.As a woman, we never treated our janitors this way, and in high school, our school janitors literally felt like part of the family- and we were very friendly to them as they were us to us. We bought them gifts ….and treated them respectfully.
Also- to be honest , throughout history Jews were persecuted by Non- Jews. SPanish Inquisition , Ancient Eygypt, The Holocaust, ETC. to be fair, we weren’t treated like HUMANS , let alone given any respect.Perhaps being reminded of the abuse and torture when I gaze at my grandmothers numbered tatoo on her arm gets me alittle agitated sometimes as well. Although I still wouldn’t treat a janitor the way the poster describes,I understand that some Jews harbor a feeling of resentment to certain non-Jews

Lissa , it is definitely not limited to “Hasidic boys” , because I have heard similar stories which happened in the litvish community , and even similar stories which happened in the modern orthodox community. So maybe you can say its an orthodox boy thing , but not a hasidic thing

Lissa, I did not attend hassidic schools and I witnessed the same exact kind of behavior. It’s pretty commonplace actually, throughout the entire orthodox spectrum, maybe occurring a little less often in the modern orthodox circles because they are generally more integrated into secular society.
Also, the kids’ behavior really has nothing to do with the historic persecution of the Jews. Kids think and believe what they pick up from the adults around them. If they absorb the idea that “goyim” are inferior to Jews, which they almost invariably do in frum yeshivas, they will act in a manner that is in accordance with those beliefs.

Velvel and Nate — Lissa was saying it’s a boy thing — as opposed to girl thing. (Not chasidish vs. non-Chasidish.) I suspect she might be right that boys might behave in such obnoxious behavior more than girls. (As boys will do generally.)

But I’m not sure the sentiment is entirely male. Chasidish women treat their Hispanic cleaning ladies pretty horribly. There was a write-up about it several years ago in the Daily News from a reporter who went undercover as a cleaning lady for Chasidish women in Williamsburg. The treatment she got was despicable.

Yes I did mean it was a “Hasidic boy” thing- naturally, I’m sure it happens in other sects as well, but not with the same tone of verbal abuse.
As far as cleaning ladies, the running joke in my house was that my mother treats the help better than she treats us. Shulem – you may be a little outta touch with the whole cleaning women thing, because today if you don’t suck up to the cleaning lady, pay for her bus fare, etc.- she will leave you for a better job. They are the ones with the upper hand.( side note- my friends speaks a fluent Spanish , but her cleaning woman had no idea, and more than once she heard her cursing her out on the phone – and my friends treats her very well- but the woman was mocking the Passover traditions, and how much money is being spent, etc.)
Nate- perhaps some kids feel “goyim” ( hate that word) are inferior to Jews because they grew up feeling priveleged and proud to be a Jew- is that a crime? Raising your kids with pride to a religion, is way better than growing up hating the religion. ( Again- there are cases where this doesnt exist so I’m not generalizing) Um- let’s not forget the persecution and abuse WE experienced throughout history. And that could possibly warrant some animosity and even a bit of rage towards the non- Jew. It’s a fact, we were the scapegoat for many a generation- and they never seemed to care who exactly was ultra, semi- or modern orthodox….We were attacked in spite of “how nice” or “not nice” we were ( as a matter of fact , at the height of assimilation, we were still forced to seperate)
Let me get this straight- verbally abusing ANYONE is unnaceptable behavior, as is talking down to someone, and mocking them. But just as we cant generalize that every non- Jew was out to persecute us throughout history, we also can’t generalize that every Jew is out to mock the Non- Jew. Yes, some ignorant sects definitely need a lesson in manners, but many many Jews treat the gentiles with the utmost respect as deserved to every human being.
( This article, like many others here seems so… biased- with one goal in mind – let’s be the muckrakers…lets show everyone how awful orthodoxy is….they have no manners towards each other and they “talk down” to the Non- Jew. I get it. the site is called “unpious” so many here come because they were scornedrejected..or they are looking for answers..or already left the faith. But come on, step outta the box for a change and show neutral perspectives. Every coin has two sides- and every religion has its pros and cons.

Lissa —

Re cleaning ladies — Is your mother the rule or the exception? You might be right that I’ve been out for a few years. But it’s hard to believe that in these few years things have changed dramatically. My ex-wife used to not allow her any of her cleaning ladies to touch her dishes for fear of some weird contamination (“ver veist vus nuch zie hut ge-touched”), and I know that that sentiment is not uncommon.

Another thing, I think there’s often a very perceptible difference in attitude between enclaves. Attitudes in Borough Park might be different from Williamsburg, and Monsey is probably different from KJ. It’s hard to generalize. But what this author did was tell a single (true) story that many of us find it’s reminiscent of the atitudes we were taught.

Re the tone of the site — we welcome and appreciate balance. And we invite all writers to present various perspectives. However, the reason a writer would submit an article to Unpious and not, say, Mishpacha or Ami or any of the other publications with their wonderful balance, is because they have something to say that is difficult to hear and accept, and those publications don’t touch them. So we provide a platform for those alternative voices, those who aren’t writing yet another fluff piece glorifying a community that has both good and bad. So like I said, any article that deals with the issue honestly, regardless of the position taken, is absolutely welcome.

Echoing Shulem, ‘muckraking’ is kinda what Unpious is about. No one reads the articles here expecting to find positive, glowing reviews of Orthodox Judaism. We can probably all think of plenty of other websites and publications that serve that purpose. That being said, there was a recent article about someone’s second marriage that was quite positive – and the protagonist remains frum. And I enjoyed that story as well.
Regarding the topic of generalizing, or overgeneralizing, yes, of course not every orthodox Jew is verbally abusive towards non-Jews. But the fact of the matter is that the kind of attitude that DOES cause SOME to engage in that kind of stuff is definitely something that occurs specifically because of their Orthodox Judaism. It’s not just a privilege type of thing. It’s fine to have pride in what you do and what you believe, but I don’t see why that should lessen the responsibility to treat every decent human with respect. Why should I have to put someone else down just to exhibit pride in my own beliefs? It seems that if anything it indicates some level of insecurity regarding the validity of the “pride” in the first place.
And finally, do other religions and groups of people do this exact same kind of thing? Sure. Probably most do, to some degree. But the people over here are not “Christians on the fringe” or “Palestinians on the fringe,” they are Hasidim on the fringe. People write about what they know and whats close to them.
As a side note, I wish it would say “Voices on the Orthodox fringe” or something like that…I’m sure lots of people who faithfully read Unpious don’t have chassidish background, but then again I do respect who the founders were…

I am with lissa, I have always seen cleaning ladies being treated at my mother’s, mother in law’s, and my own home, with the full respect, while they didn’t always behave nicely. My mother used to prepare breakfast for a cleaning lady every day, till one day when she left us all of a sudden, the reason – my mother served her only one egg for breakfast, not two… true story.

Shulem writes: “My ex-wife used to not allow her any of her cleaning ladies to touch her dishes for fear of some weird contamination (“ver veist vus nuch zie hut ge-touched”), and I know that that sentiment is not uncommon.”

My sister (who I admit I do love dearly so this is not intended as snark)says the same thing about my mother’s aides. And yet, this is a woman who will not bathe during this upcoming “three day Yom Tov” and who, on said Yom Tov and Shabbos, will not cleanse her hands with soap. You connect the dots. From bathroom to kitchen. The dishes she serves… Now who is calling the kettle black here? (Use of black not intended in any racial way, it’s just a common expression.)

Just one more response to Lissa’s comment about unpious being a muckracking site. It is not only that almost and maybe all orthodox publications cast orthodoxy in a positive light , but that they will never show anything negative about orthodoxy , and will work hard to make sure not to publish a story which shows orthodoxy in a negative light , which is why many of these magazines are censored , even Mishpacha (which I find to be relativity open etc. )
Another purpose of this website is to express something which no orthodox publication will ever express, which is, orthodoxy doesn’t work for everyone.
One more point , if you think a cleaning lady or really any employee who has a very common skill set , i.e cleaning, has the upper hand, you are denying the way the free market works, especially in this economy. Unless you are going to say that a honest “goyishe” cleaning lady is a rare commodity, which plays perfectly into this article.

Velvel Belkin writes:
I have a clear memory of bochurim in yeshiva dumping garbage on the floor in order to make the polish janitor clean it up. I remained silent

I hope you were and are ashamed of yourself for “standing idly by the blood of your neighbor”

Lissa and Siyum, I see the cancer has deep roots in your souls.

“We weren’t like that. We treated the help well even though those ungrateful animals didn’t deserve it. Besides, you know how all those goyim are. Inquisition, Holocaust, Haman, they’re all evil. They all live to oppress us. They’re not quite human. Not like us double-souled Chosen.”

Yom Kippur is over. It’s not too late to do teshuvah.

Todd, not only am I ashamed about the past , I am even ashamed about all the times in the present when weak people are being abused and I don’t stand up for them.

I’m quite willing to accept the fact that I somehow lived in a special, magical Orthodox world that never existed anywhere but inside my own feverish skull.

I’m not denying that racism don’t exist within Orthodoxy, but, in the special, magical, apparently non-existant Orthodox world I experienced, the very rare expression of racism or bigotry was regarded as shameful or crazy or both, and treated as such. (My memories of this illusory never-never-land include an incident in which a bochur was expelled from a Jerusalem yeshiva for being disrespectful to a Palestinian janitor.)

It doesn’t particularly surprise me, however, that there are trashy redneck Orthodox yiddin in the “real world.”

What does surprise is that anyone in the “real world” would see Orthodox Judaism as the reason why some Orthodox yiddin are trashy rednecks.

Last night I enjoyed the first night sukka meal with two young women whose parents were converts. They told me how at their Bais Taakov school it hurt so much to be told how goyim are terrible and hate all jews, and would become slaves after moshiach. They kept thinking of their beloved grandarents, whenever told such. I am so glad that I send my kids to secular schools, since my kids also have a non-jewish father so it would also be personally assaulting if they heard those sort of sentiments.

In our very multicultural society such words are inappropriate. Even in the frummest of institutions there are converts and children of converts, adopted kids, or kids with non-jewish relatives, as well as non-jewish staff, neighbours etc.

Sarah, how can you maintain a hermetic social and intellectual seal without telling people how wonderful they are and how evil everyone else is?

Ok. So at least I know what the purpose of the site is . To give a voice to those who indeed wish to muckrake…my question is still – Why the need ? If your’e so adamant that religious orhodoxy is ludicrous , then why even discuss it? I don’t waste my breathe on something I don’t care about- it doesnt even come up as a blip on my radar . So why are there countless articles on here protesting the religious idiosyncrasies , behaviors and customs? As someone who is ” on the fringe ” or “questioning the faith” – I come here looking for support , or answers. But all I see is a one sided view . A narrow minded perspective. And that makes me think thatthese opinions and articles are just way too biased. Way too angry. I need answers. facts . Well informed \ educated opinions.
Which isn’t to say that one can’t express themselves.But getting all huffy about those “religious” fanatics that mistreat non- Jews, without ackowledging that non- Jews have mistreated us for centuries is just ..well…ignorant.

I am not sure Lissa if you read the qualifications to submit an article for this website but if you didn’t it would do you well. I quote “For the most part, we do not accept submissions that deal directly and specifically with theological and heavy philosophical issues. A piece attempting to disprove religion will go straight to the trash; not because we disagree, but because we probably agree so strongly that it no longer needs to be said.” So this is not the place to get “facts” etc. It is an online journal (Shulem Deen’s words) a place where experiences are recorded , and yes many of them are negative. From experiences you can gain a glance of the character of a community but not a full view ,and not an objective opinion about a community, and you definitively can’t gather whether a communities beliefs are true or not.

lissa, there is no anger in this story, nor is there in most of the others. Sadness, yes, maybe even some indignation, but really no anger. You mention that fact and well educated opinions are important to you. As Velvel mentioned, this is not the place for that, though there certainly are MANY sites on the web where you can find those. And many of us are equally interested in facts and educated opinions. But sometimes a humanistic and emotional side can be helpful too. And that is where Unpious comes in. Why do so many people who left OJ continue to read stuff like the articles on Unpious? In short, because it’s of interest to us. It makes us feel supported to know that others have gone through the same struggles, or have noticed the same flaws in orthodoxy that we had. Also, the writing is usually damn good, and the articles are just plain fun to read. No one is reading this article and saying to themselves – “Hey! He’s got a point! Frum Jews can be really insular and racist!” That’s not what it’s about. What someone MIGHT say to him or herself is “You know, I remember feeling similarly! Good to know I wasn’t just crazy…” As for your final point, that the writer didn’t mention anything about non-Jews mistreating us, well, it’s just irrelevant to the story. No one claims that that hasn’t happened in the past. But orthodox Jews do claim to be superior in morality to everyone else, so I guess we’d expect more from them, as per their own claims. I mean, do you really think that it’s not so bad for these kids to harass this Hispanic man because some of their own ancestors went through the Holocaust? I don’t see the connection. And I don’t think it’s relevant to the story.

Nate- your response made a lot of sense . I guess this isnt the place for educated and nuetral opinions- it is a blog – and the bloggers here target a certain sect of Judaism . Ok .
But I lost you when you mentioned “the irrelevence of Jews being mistreated” ( you also spoke only of the Holocast – and failed to mention Muslims, Naziism, Russia’s Soviet Union, Hellenism, Spanish Inquisition- all just “some ” examples of how Jews weren’t just mocked , but specifically picked on an TORTURED merely for choosing to practice religion)
To me, that is completely relevent. Because let me be clear- NO, it is not acceptable to treat humans the way the way the janotor in this article was treated. It was wrong, and is always wrong to treat anyone that way. But my original comment was directed at other commeneters who seem to be so sensitive to the non- Jews feelings , when in fact throughout history many non- Jews couldn’t care less about OUR feelings- let alone our basic human rights.
And again- I say – my friends and I treat our cleaning ladies well. And in my daughter’s school, she knows all her custodians names- I sometimes observe girls waving and smiling to teh janotir at pickup. There is no name calling and abusing because her school would never tolerate it, The principals treat them with nothing but decency and respect. Like I said, its a “Hasidic boy ” thing, or rather a “boy” thing- because in general , young boys are less mannered than girls. They yell out of bus windows, burp in public, resort to the occasional “physical” arguing- so perhaps , mocking the janitor is just another ill- mannered thing they do. Schools should focus on teaching common courtesies, teh concept of “middos”, and decencies. I know many good religious schools that DO teach that.
Side note- my non- Jewish neighbor is a public school bus driver, and after a full day he is shot. He said he’s cursed at, spit at, etc. ( which isn’t to say EVERY non- Jewish public school goer has no manners, just SOME of the kids he deals with)
Let’s be open- minded. Truly openminded. Not all religious Jewboys are obnoxious to non – Jews, and not everything about OJ is awful.

You cant steriotype a complete community because of a few boys. If you do you could apply that to every ethnic group. See real Judaism action at JPAC NYC.BLOGSPOT.COM

Please please someone tell me this JPAC is some practical joke

@Justin

It today’s political climate, it’s hazardous to label anything a “farce” or a “joke.”

Frankly, it’s gotten to the point where I’m regularly struggling with strong feelings of resentment toward David Ben-Gurion, a man who’s been dead since December, 1973. I guess I’m just giving in to the normal human desire to figure out when did it all start to go so very, very wrong?

Take, for example, the fact that a recent independent poll revealed that Hamas’ popularity has drastically declined in Gaza, while at the same time, haredim are energetically militating on behalf of gender-segregated public transportation and public streets.

I mean, I try to make a sincere effort to keep on top of all the intellectual explanations, such as the intriguing notion that it all boils down to a victory of Kabbalah Judaism over Rambam Judaism, but I think I read those explanations in the same way that marijuana-lovers light up a huge spliff after a stressful day at work. It doesn’t really change things. But it at least makes them more bearable. For a little while.

Justin, unfortunately JPAC isn’t a joke. These guys are serious foaming at the mouth Know Nothing fanatics. I do wonder a bit about them. They’re obsessed with homosexuality. They have an unhealthy fascination with stuffed animals. They are prone to dressing up in bizarre costumes. I’m guessing most of them are secret furries if not actual plushies.

So succinctly put and well written. It’s so frustrating to see the ultra-orthodox community yell cries of “antisemitism, prejudice” in relation to politics and law i.e. rubashkin case, while simultaneously teaching their kids that we are superior because we are jewish and using derogatory terms like “schvartze”. Their double standard when it comes to race is abhorrent. How can we be expected to be treated fairly and justly despite our religion,race ethnicity etc… if we cannot do the same?