Teacher of the Year

Dang Hot Tamales!

Hasidic Rebel: can you mark which stories are fiction and which are not?

I’m dying to know if this story is true !!!!

Um..as a woman I can say that my friends and I all go the gym and we all have families. If its important to stay healthy , than fitness is a priority. There are lots of early morning classes, and late night classes often run by Jewish frum women and they accomodate the mother’s schedule.
As far as the wig – have you ever been to a women’s swimming pool or a women’s gym? many women maintain their hair ,and color it under their wigs ( obviously not the ones that shave or cut them short, but you would be surprised)
If this is in fact ,NOT fiction- I’d find it refreshing. ( Not the Promiscuouity and language per say ) But the idea that a frum woman could have a life outside her obligations…I dunno, I kinda like that.

A gay relative of mine swears that five or six years ago he ran into a chassid at a small gay bar way down on 1st or 2nd near 10th. He says that the guy was just standing there, playing pinball or some game like that, and that he got snotty when my relative started speaking to him in Yiddish.

(And, NO, my relative was NOT trying to hit on the guy. He’s from a weird secularist/yiddishist side of the family that settled in Latin America before WWII. He’s one of very, very few completely secular people I know who’s under *forty* and speaks *good* yiddish. [Yes. These people really *do* exist.])

At any rate, my relative says that he couldn’t understand why the guy was *rude* with him because the guy, after all, didn’t have his peyos tucked under a baseball cap or anything and, besides, he was in NEW YORK, of all places, so he had to have known for certain that there were going to be people in this bar who recognized that he was a chassid.

Which leads me to wonder…

It would be so much easier for men and women from the yeshivische world to go to gay bars if they wanted. If there are chassidische folks who go to gay bars, despite the greater challenges they face with clothes, hair, etc., there’s got to be *many* more yeshivische who do it.

(I just realized I should amend what I meant by “weird.” What I mean is that this side of the family is *very* anti-religious but very pro-Yiddish. Theirs is a kind of Jewish identification that hardly exists nowadays outside a few very small communities in, for example, Mexico City and Montreal. So, I didn’t mean “weird” in a pejorative sense. I meant “weird” as in “rare” or “unusual.”)

This story is clearly fiction. Not saying that “it cant happen” just saying that it didnt. Just btw I was a teacher for many years in different schools, principals dont bark at teachers.

Lol. How was the author accepted as a teacher?

Riki I loved both your stories, and I really hope they are true. I have just discovered a new found interest in Chumash! Who would have thought after all these years?

You sound like a great teacher!!

Fluffykneidle: the real question which should be asked is why would Rikki be interested in a career of teaching Chumash when she can just a easily do many other things which are probably easier?

The answer, apparently, is that Rikki began teaching at 18 before she was enlightened…

Thanks for your feedback! Just so ya know- obviously some details were changed to protect my identity ( like what subject I teach ,the color of my hair, etc. ) But my experiences are one hundred percent true. ( Partying , being with girls, living a “partial” double life, etc.)
I like to have my cake ( family life, the beauty of what religion and its’ traditions bring , a place in my society, etc. )
BUT-
I like to eat it too ( the very occasional fling,a night out clubbing, and silly thrills that I will grow out of one day- )
As far as my job goes- I’m a master teacher. I genuinely love my students , and persued an education in the feild I teach .
I’m just trying to write pieces that depict the duplicitous life some of us lead. Thanks again for your feedback!

Love it! Jealous!

Very well Written, and again these are my favorite articles, people exploring another side of life whilst also living the frum one.

so it’s true then….wow.

I had assumed Riki’s last post was allegorical (musta been all those years listening to Torah apologists) – i.e. pointing out the hypocrisy that exists in Frum circles on the one hand, as well as highlighting the double lives so many are forced to maintain in the pursuit of happiness, on the other.
In light of Mrs Stein’s latest post, and comment above, (no doubt, since I have long had difficulty with literal interpretations of scripture) I am struggling to take this at face value…further proof that I am still pretty naive.
Hey, whatever works for you, Riki – I guess.

@ Gutman – my pieces can be whatever you want them to be. They are honest, (for the most part)and in way…self deprecating…because oddly enough, I don’t neccesarily advocate what I’m doing , I’m sort of just sharing my experiences. Why do men that cheat stay married ? Why do political figures stay in politics even after that realize how twisted it can be ? Why do some gay celebrities refuse to publicly come out of the closet? Because they all believe they have too much to lose whether they are right or wrong.
I too, fear I have too much to lose. And so , I do the best I can living the life I do. And like I mentioned before, there are many areas of orthodoxy that I DO like.
Sometimes in life, we make choices , as adults. I was never forced to bear children. I did, and I don’t regret it. But I know the repercussions of openly denouncing my faith. I know that there’s too much at stake by “coming out ” as perhaps…a bit unpious.
So I get away with what I can , and I hope that one day , the allure of other women , temptations of club life, etc. won’t entice me as it does now. I already have a higher education, a pretty active social life, and a fulfilling marriage.
Until then, you’ll probably be reading about some other experiences. And believe me , I’m just getting started.

Riki, I hear you (well, I guess that should be “I read you”) loud and clear. We aren’t that different…

It’s funny. I had a relative (she’s long since passed away) who had a husband (also now deceased) that cheated on her often – and it really wasn’t even a well kept secret. He was a nice guy, a good provider, handy, helpful and kind. He used to drive around the highways on weekends looking for people who had run into car trouble and needed help; his one flaw may have been that he wasn’t satisfied with one woman.

Someone I know, once asked his wife how she could put up with his philandering, and she replied simply:

What are my options really?

1. I can confront him about it, which means that now I’ve upped the ante: He either quits the behavior (not likely in the long-term), or my marriage comes to a crashing end. Believe me when I tell you that a failed marriage would definitely not be beneficial to me in the slightest.

2. I can feign ignorance. By doing nothing I maintain a generally happy marriage in a decent home with a kind husband who’s a hard worker – who claims to be going bowling from time to time.
So, she said, I chose the latter.

I used to think she was wrong. For me, cheating on a spouse was close to the top of the top-ten of worst things one human can do to another. However, in retrospect, I’ve come to think that she was right. To her, cheating wasn’t the issue here – life was. We all make concessions and “look-away” from numerous things for the sake of having a better life. For her it meant agreeing to pretend her husband was completely loyal to her.

And we all do it to some degree. For me – for my wife’s sake – it means maintaining the appearance that I am an Ehriliche Yid. And for each individual it means something specific to them.

All I can say is good luck, and hey, be careful out there!

@ Gutman- I appreciate your open view of things that you may not agree with. One mini correction. I don’t cheat on my husband. He is well aware I am attracted to girls and have been prior to my marriage. He is one hundred percent ok with it. Obviously, I don’t tell him every itty bitty detail( although sometimes I do).When I go out,he’s confident that no matter what I do – it’s merely silly thrills,and although it’s fun, I come home to him. Only him

Gutman Braun, there is an important difference between the two cases. Your relative’s husband was cheating. There was no agreement, no meeting of minds, no honesty and certainly no hint of reciprocity.

Riki and her husband have rules and limits about what is permissible. They are faithful within the bounds of the agreement they’ve worked out.

Riki & Todd, I’m sorry if I wasn’t clear – I understood that – my point wasn’t to draw a parallel along lines of infidelity, rather, I was attempting to highlight how we all (most of us anyway) live somewhat of a lie, which we do for the sake of our own happiness. In my relative’s story, the lie was that her husband was loyal. In my story the lie is that I am frum, in this (Riki’s) story the “lie” is also pertaining to religious beliefs or what have you.

(Further clarification: I also wasn’t attempting to absolve my relative’s husband – not even a little bit – I was specifically referring to her side of the predicament.)

the thread might be more entertaining than the piece

Riki – I am very impressed at your honesty and your clear devotion to your husband. You are very lucky to have someone as understanding as him, it is a true sign of his love and trust of you, most other men would never go for that.
Do you ever wish your life could be out in the open, living in a different community with acceptance of who you really are? Do you feel maybe you would miss the Judaism that is so much a part of you, much of which you really do enjoy and appreciate? I often think about that when I consider the “truth” of Orthodox Judaism.

You know. Five years ago, I might have openly denounced my faith and “outted” myself. But now, I think I’m ( a bit ) more mature. I dont know if leaving it all behind is worth it just for some fun. YOu see, many on this site left because there was no “middle ” ground. They could’t just persue an education, change their mode of dress, modify some stringincies- and still remain “frum”.
I could.
When I’m not in the classroom, I dress how I want for the most part .( obviosuly I don’t wear pants or sleevless tops like I would if I were to go to a bar, but I don’t dress like a complete nerd either) I also persued an education, as did my husband, and I do modify some religious rituals that I don’t care to keep. Openly, I respect my family, and would never defy the way I was raised. I tried to find a happy medium. For me, personally, the pros of maintaining my orthodoxy outweighed the cons.

HOT DAYAM!

“… many on this site left because there was no “middle ” ground. They could’t just persue an education, change their mode of dress, modify some stringincies- and still remain “frum”.”

Riki — Just to address this aside: I haven’t seen anyone say they couldn’t stay frum b/c “there was no middle ground.” In fact, while we don’t have solid statistics here, my guess is the majority of Unpious readers are actually just like you: people who are still frum for the most part but chose to carve out their own paths.

Also, regarding those who have left, what you say might be true for some, but I suspect not many. The ones that I know definitely could do all those things you mention. Most simply chose not to. They simply stopped believing and had no interest in frumkeit, period.

As Da’as Hedyot wrote recently: It’s all bathwater.

Very rarely do I find someone who left completely simply because he/she disliked “stringencies.”

I think its a fact that

A. The non haredi jewish world – reform, conservative, modern o – simply isnt organized towards or equipped to engage in serious outreach to off the derech people. In some cases thats out of ideological disinclination, in some cases profound cultural distance, in others simply being overwhelmed with their own issues.
B. Many off the derech people, are not exposed to the non haredi jewish world, and dont realize whats out there. They think its all bathwater because they have not really seen a different way of looking at the baby
C. Of course some manage to find those places, and to find satisfaction in them, DESPITE it not being enough to keep their links to their families. How many more might seek out those places, and put up with the frustrations of engaging with such culturally different communities, IF it were more compatible with family acceptance, I do not know

@Shulem- I’ve come across many people that have left “frumkeit”- and I gotta say a large few were from very “extreme “sects of orthodoxy. They complain that receiving a proper secular education wasn’t an option, that changing a mode of dress was highly frowned upon, talking to the opposite sex was a big no- no, and questioning basic principles was out of teh question. Otherwise they were labeled, ridiculed, or dragged to the local Rabbi.
I’m not saying NEVER, but rarely does someone who was raised in a warm “frum ” open-minded home , or an individual in a healthy ,stimulating marriage decide that being frum is no longer for them. Usually there’s some sort of void leading up to that decision. Again, not making a general statement, just my observation.
I have an education, a stimulating job, a marriage I like, kids I love, and parents and siblings I admire. However , I am also pulled by the allure of the occasional drink, the temptation of beautiful women, and the thrill of a club. So you are right. I choose to alter religious codes to fit my needs, or raher wants

@Riki — I’m surprised you’d mention those you came across. Why do you think you’d have access to the full range of OTDs?

I happen to know OTDs from across the Orthodox spectrum, and I assure you they exist in equal measure. People leave Modern Orthodoxy in the same proportions (or perhaps even higher ones) as those who leave Satmar, Skver, Chabad, Lakewood, or any other form of Orthodoxy. Do your research first; don’t establish facts based on a few people you happen to know.

I’m not saying NEVER, but rarely does someone who was raised in a warm… etc. etc.

You say this like you know all OTDs. Or even most. Which is of course impossible. Your assertion is patently untrue. It’s a ludicrous mantra parroted by those in the frum world in order to feel better about themselves.

The fact is, plenty of those who leave don’t show signs of unhappiness before they do leave. Every frum person is a potential OTD. Every frum person has troubles and challenges of some sort, and every frum person has moments of happiness and fulfillment. It is no trick to analyze one who’s left and retroactively attribute it to some convenient cause.

“As far as the wig – have you ever been to a women’s swimming pool or a women’s gym? many women maintain their hair ,and color it under their wigs ( obviously not the ones that shave or cut them short, but you would be surprised”

Oh, for god’s sake. Just lose the damn wig already. What’s the point of all that coloring and primping if you’re just going to cover up the mane anyway?

Wishful thinking. I wish women would just STOP. I hate those wigs. I hate those shaitels. Really I do.

There. I said it. Couldn’t say it to them. But I can say it to you! Before Shulem kicks me off .

At the risk of sounding churlish, let me clarify. And here I found it, in Sam Katz’s piece Occupy Rodney Street:

The greatest injustice on the Boro Park-Williamsburg bus is not the segregation of the sexes per se but the ideology that makes people okay with it.”

I know the wig doesn’t rise to the indignant level of corruption and welfare fraud. On balance, it may not rank on the same degree. But it comes from the same place. The utter complacency with this nonsense. Women may not like it but they have no say. No voice in how they dress, every detail minutely scripted. I’m not even talking tziniut. I could grant them that when I visit. I don’t do the shaitel but even my head covering gets my goat.

Riki, your free spirit kick is invigorating. But your last post on clubbing, as I wrote, came off more depressing than enlightening. I still see you as trapped. I wish you could just take that damn shaitel and toss it out the window. That you have to make those concessions, wear what to me amounts to a girdle on top of your head, just to maintain family and culture is infuriating. You simply shouldn’t have to.

I’m still waiting for that female revolution. The one where women stop shrugging, stop insisting, convincing, that it’s really not so bad to wear some ridiculous fake hair contraption on your head. Because when you stop to think about it, the shaitel isn’t just a bad headache. It’s a bad idea.

J- you are such a guy. Many women relish the idea of never having to take care of their hair, and throwing on an “insta-glam” look. The wig is a convenience, to many. As far as the rule itself- it is what it is. We are all bound by rules to a certain extent. This is one of those things, and whne you choose a religion, ANY religion ( or president, or government, or school, etc. ) then you choose to follow all of their policies , even the ones you don’t agree with.

Shulem- I really really really do NOT want to give myself away ( I seriosuly have nighmares about this , because some of my good friends read this site, and they also know the “real” me ) But I will say , that because of what I do ,( obviously other parts of my job) I have had some incredible opportunities to travel, and continue to meet many MANY people. So my observations come from a pretty broad spectrum. I am entitled to my opinion- but let’s just say its more like an educated guess- and I do believe that those that were raised without secrets, loathing, or voids, are often saitisfied with what life sent their way ( religion included) And those that were raised with double standards, unenxplained stringencies, or unfulfilling relationships tend to look elsewhere ( religion included) But this is just MY hypothesis.

“J- you are such a guy. Many women relish the idea of never having to take care of their hair, and throwing on an “insta-glam” look.”

Yea, right. I happen to have long hair and it is infinitely easier to take care of than a wig.

But whatever floats one’s boat. The point here is that the shaitel is not a choice. And it is possible to lead a just and religious life, yes, modern orthodox even, and not wear one. I think the price is too high. I’ve had family members try to convince me how much prettier a shaitel is than hair. Beside the point.

@ Shulem I specifically said: it was MY opinion based on My experiences. By no means did I state facts . I’m no OTD expert- but again, I say that one who chooses to switch paths does so for a REASON. And the people I’ve come across has some very interesting reasons.
Personally, I have little desire to become OTD . Becoming part of the secular world FULL TIME has no pull for me . I wanted to pursue an education, I did. ( I have a masters ..thinking about turning it into a P.H.D) Wanted to attend interesting classes and courses. I did. Wanted to alternate my mode of dress. I did. Want to raise my kids in an open-mined , accepting world- I am. So for me, PERSONALLY- although there are aspects of our religion I don’t particularly care for , I would NOT abandon it altogether.
As far as your anecdote of the Rabbi- I dunno, am I nuts? I think a person is still a Jew regardless of him flicking open a light, fasting or not, holding a plugged in microphone, or any other “trangression” he performs. I guess in order to understand OTD properly , one must know what the actual ‘D’ in OTD is…APparently, I don’t.
I believe there’s more than one “D ” in Judaism and I also believe I’m loved by God regardless.

Riki, you’re making some interesting points. And I’m getting a better picture of who you are.

I agree with you on the rabbi point. My synagogue uses microphones. Yet I consider our shul leadership to be observant. So do they, for all intents and purposes, they are Shomer Shabbat. The rabbi, chazzan (a woman) and the director of education all live within walking distance to the shul. They keep kosher, observe Shabbat and chaggim, etc. These technical differences never crossed my mind when I was a child. The New York frum world often can be so black and white.

I should clarify I’m talking about a Conservative shul, not Modern Orthodox. We are egalitarian and traditional. And quite liberally minded.

Riki, forgive. One last question. You say you are well educated, you travel. Very very cool, girl! You go! But I don’t get it. You have all this world experience and you are….teaching chumash? Far be it from me to disparage teaching. And I’m not patronizing you by saying it’s one of the most important jobs an adult can do for our children.

I’m guessing you don’t teach in a Chassidic school. And I’ll let you know I actually loved chumash growing up. It appealed to my literary analytical intellectual cravings. I confess I cheated on the papers. My father was a brilliant Talmudic and Judaic scholar and I’d come home from school and just ask him to dictate the paper to me. He was a genius and often clueless and he didn’t realize I was “cheating.” Look, the man spoke around eight languages, English not one of them.

I got to have this rare and amazing father-daughter time, he’d spew away, I never had to look a thing up, I turned it in and got consistent A’s. Shame on me. But I still laugh at those times with my father. His remarkable intellect, albeit only in the Jewish textual world. This Holocaust survivor, so deep, so smart and so baffled by his new life in America.

But back to you, Riki. You have some interesting sides to you. I’m still wondering why this world class well traveled part time lesbian wannabe wants to teach chumash. Brain does not compute…

LOL J! You’re smart – but if ya read my earlier comments you would have seen that I changed some info to protect my identity ( hair color, subject I teach, names, etc.) I’m gonna stop giving out personal info here , this may come back to me.

And yes, I’m quite a complicated chic. ( by the way the correct term for part time lesbian is bi-sexual, but I despise labels …)

Glad I piqued your interest.

Oh, yes, I read those earlier comments. Of course. It may not be chumash. Items may have shifted to protect identity.

Yes, I know it’s bi-sexual. Which makes me wonder since you so kindly shared. Are you a bi-sexual or do you just like a little kinky daring extra on the side?

None of my business, of course. But I still don’t buy that your compartmentalized life is as honky dory as you profess. If you have lesbian leanings, and you are stuck in a shaital, I’d say you’d got yourself some problems, my dear.

I’d say address those. That it’s a double life no matter how you slice it and I’d have a hard time believing it’s not taking its toll on you. But heck, I’m not your shrink. And then your essays wouldn’t be as interesting. Which I confess, that they are.

Did I mention you’re funny J?
I am who I am. I like who I am. And I don’t label myself ’cause I am NOT a bi-sexual. My attraction is all women, but I am happily married. Paradox for you. Works for me. As does my career choice, my wig choice, and the choice of what (or who) I do. When we choose anything in life , be it governemt , spouse, or religion- we take the good and the bad. In my case , the good of orthodoxy outweighs the bad. And if there are parts I can’t conform to , I don’t .Privately. Is it ideal? Perhaps not, but nothing in this world is, so I’m content with the choices I’ve made so far.
Sounds like you want a piece of my pie

Is there a “don’t like” button? Cause I respectfully want to press it for above reply, Riki Stein. You say your choices work for you, and I respect that, but much of what you outline sounds terribly unhealthy. “…attraction is all woman and happily married” (to a man I assume from context). You mention “Ideal or perhaps not?” I can’t imagine a less ideal lifestyle then the one you outline, in which you un-conform to things privately. Again, I respect your decisions and I don’t know your circumstances and I can’t even really have an opinion reading a couple articles. But the double life you outline sounds terribly unhealthy, so allow me to press the imaginary “don’t like” button.

Enjoying this thread so much! Did it occur to you Justin that her husband could be gay? I’ve heard of these marriages in the frum velt.They have kids together, and have a regular marriage . DOn’t knwo if this is the case here, but Im taking a crack at it.

Riki I admire you so much. I think your approach of finding a happy life for yourself which works for you is the main thing , even at the expense of so called ‘intellectual honesty”.
People like you are my heroes throughout Jewish history. For example Rabbi J.B Soleveichik, Rabbi Yecheil Yackov Weinberg.
Just to ba’avaron all the attacks on me comparing Riki to those great men . I am just comparing them in the fact that they din’t live in a black and white world but rather straddled many worlds, and yes I realize those men lived in a halcahik framework but I don’t think it takes away from the authenticity of my point.

“Did I mention you’re funny J?”

Gee, thanks!

“Sounds like you want a piece of my pie”

Actually, not. I started by getting hooked on the shaitel thing. It’s a thorn in my side, that shaitel stuff. I don’t wear one which leaves me with either a hat or a shmateh on my head when I attend family weddings. I don’t know a better way around this.

When I read your first post, before you presented a broader description of yourself, it just seemed desperate and seedy. Now I get how much fun you’re having. I initially wondered, why not take all that talent and do something useful with it? Why waste it on all the deception? But now I see you’ve found a way to make it all work. As best you can.

I just wish women in your position didn’t have to sneak around so much. Am I completely truthful with my extended family? Heck, no, I’d probably be disowned. And I’ve often wondered whether that would have been easier ultimately. The difference is, I kiss them goodbye, get on the highway and after many hours, I’m back home. Where I can wear pants and short sleeved shirts openly and I don’t have to cover my hair!

To add, I just read Justin’s comment. And he sums it up for me. No, I don’t want a piece of your pie. As much as I respect your high wire act, no way would I want to live like that. Justin put it better than me. It just sounds so terribly unhealthy. I get your hubby is all okay with it. But you have a reputation at stake and a lot to hide, you say. When I first read the post about tossing your wig into the back seat and sneaking out into the night, I thought, this behavior is more becoming to an errant 16 year old, not a women with kids. Not that we women can’t have fun.

Sorry. You’re still very interesting. But I’ll merely reiterate what I wrote when I read your Girls Just Wanna Have Fun post (paraphrasing title). It came off desperate. And hardly seemed worth it. But as I said, you’ve managed to cobble together various parts of your life in a way that works for you. It just seems so unhealthy.

J- I hear you loud and clear But,I am happy. Which is why my writing doesn’t have a bitter or resentful undertone . And truth be told, I wanted to represent the voice of women and girls in my community who never had a chance to have “fun” because they married young, or popped out five kids in their early twenties. These are the faces of women I see at the gym, talk to at work, and meet all over. They crave a little fun, and desire a little excitement. And that’s who my pieces represent. Women like me, who care about how they look, have pretty content lives, and for the most part, a sense of fulfillment due to various activities. Yet- they still want a little something more. Whatever that “more” is. ( In my case, its a girls night out , a tryst with a beautiful women, etc.)
I’ve yet to meet someone who has a “perfect” life. It doesn’t exist. People who decide to come clean about their actions also suffer the reprecussions. So, while they may have corrected ONE aspect of their life, others will remain in limbo. I made my decision, and I choose to write about my experiences, Because they are interesting, compelling, and I believe they belong on a site like this . because ..well- I guess my actions are a bit “unpious. “Anyway, I’m just getting started.

Okay, good explanations. Write away!

Riki:
My question to you is, do you believe in god? Do you believe the Orthodox version of Judaism?

Because I too am trying to straddle both worlds, pursuing higher education and some fun here and there. But how good can it feel when I lie to my kids, send them to schools which teach them to live fake and shitty lives, and in general hide many of my actions from my children like a thief in the night? I HATE every minute of it! And you’re telling me that you’re content with it all? Can I have some of what you’re smoking?

Of course I believe in God. But I beleive he loves me even though I don’t always do teh right thing. I raise my kids with unconditional love, and although sometimes I’m not completely honest with them- I don’t lie outright either. When they’re sleeping, they don’t have to know where I’m going ( Whether I go for movie, a shuir , or a comedy club – sometimes with my husband )My children are my number one priority , and yes, sometimes I grapple with the bullshit that’s out there, but it’s up to each one of us to do teh ebst we can when it comes to our kids.
Also, I highly doubt I’ll be clubbing in my 40’s…and one day I will stop “hooking up ” with other women. I’m young, this is now.

“Because I too am trying to straddle both worlds, pursuing higher education and some fun here and there. But how good can it feel when I lie to my kids, send them to schools which teach them to live fake and shitty lives, and in general hide many of my actions from my children like a thief in the night? I HATE every minute of it! And you’re telling me that you’re content with it all? Can I have some of what you’re smoking?”

See, that’s the thing, Riki. When I began to straddle both worlds, it was no day at the beach. I didn’t have children to lie to, my big lie was going to college while living at home and hiding it. It wasn’t easy and it was painful.

I’m sorry for you J I had a horrible childhood too- my parents were the most stringent, image -conscience people I ever met, and at seventeen hiding my education was the least of my problems. ( not to undermine yours I spend hald my life STILL trying to please them, and the other half in therapy trying to get over pleasing them ( slightly exaggertaed but ya get my point )I thank mhy lucky stars I married a decent open -minded guy.

This is turning out to show quite an interesting divide in the unpious community, those who can live two lives and in two worlds and make it work and be at peace , and those who can’t , which in some cases leads them to leave orthodoxy entirely.

Velvel, I don’t necessarily live two lives but I’ll borrow a phrase Unpious Posek used when responding to a questioner who’d left the religious world but wondered how much of it she should expose her child to. Posek used the term, raising a bi-cultural child. Which is what I did.

I do have two worlds. My Chassidishe extended family and my own world of husband, daughter and modern American life. And like Riki, I’ll pat myself on the back. I don’t usually brag, I tend to be hard on myself but a therapist (I actually did very little therapy on this. Detriment or advantage? That’s another story) once beamed at me, “you are a miracle.” I’m going to finally begrudgingly accept that award. Although I could have done better. I have to say, I’ve managed that high wire act and haven’t fallen off to my death yet!

I do have two worlds. Two worlds but not two lives in conflict with each other. When all is said and done, not sure I’d want to give up the richness of the former. When I visit that other world, I always feel like Hermione, coming from the muggles and slipping through that imaginary door, seen only to wizards, to get her onto Platform Nine and Three Quarters. I slip in and slip out. Time warp act. It’s pretty cool actually. When it’s not awful.

I don’t mix my two worlds. It keeps me sane. I don’t have to lie and sneak around because I escaped before they had a chance to marry me off. I continued to live at home until age nineteen. I never broke contact. I just said no. Quietly, politely but firmly. NO. Not sure where I got that resolve.

A friend has been nagging me for years to meet my family. I’m not quite sure why I haven’t done that. Over the years, a scant few, the lucky ones, got to meet them. They all want to, they are dying to. I don’t because I groan at the inevitable one hundred questions that will follow.

Velevel – WOW- I was looking for the right words and those were it!

Riki thanks.
J. I completely understand , as Rabbi Aaron Rakeffet coined the following term to describe Rabbi J.B Soleveichik, “Harmonious coexistence”. That you have two worlds which live in you (not that you live in) at once , but don’t ever cross, or conflict. As Rabbi Rakeffet put it, when Rabbi Soleveichik was in the classroom he was the quintessential Rosh Yeshiva , complete Brisk with no influence of philosophy etc. But in The Lonely Man of Faith or chamesh defikot , you see all the philosophy etc, two worlds living side by side, never conflicting. J. I respect you and am glad it works for you. I am still figuring out which type of life is right for me, and which will let me live at peace.

Velvel — I agree, there’s something of a divide. But in many ways it’s probably more of a broad spectrum. Of the people I know, there are definitely far more like Riki than those who leave completely.

Also — Kaf and J. — I think Riki’s piece highlights an important part of the frum-fringe. And I don’t think it should be surprising that she’s content where others are not. The archetype she represents — since I don’t really know much about her in particular — has little desire to leave the frum world because the things that drive her to step out of the boundaries aren’t compelling enough to make her want to give it all up. Those who leave are generally seeking far far more.

From both of your comments above it seems like it isn’t merely fun that you’re looking for (which, like Riki, you can have), but freedom from all that you find distasteful about the frum lifestyle in general and the duplicitiuosness you feel (or felt) forced into in particular. You’re seeking, it seems to me, a less tangible quality than what Riki is looking for; it is, one might say, more an existential dilemma than simply a way to satisfy an occasional craving for a thrill. Am I wrong?

J., I believe that we’re talking about two different things entirely. You’re comfortably esconced in the secular world where you feel you belong, and just haven’t cut your family out of your life, so you might take frequent excursions into that world. Let’s not kid ourselves, you don’t live in the frum world. You don’t need lie to anyone, even though you might not need to tell them everything.

Us “modern day Marranos,” on the other hand live in the frum world, while feeling that we belong in the secular world, living secret lives, lying to many and perhaps most if not all of our friends and family. That’s what I’m talking about and that’s Riki’s life. Hadn’t she mentioned that she is terrified of her friends discovering the real her? While she claims to believe in god, which would probably make it easier, isn’t it likely then that she suffers from cognitive dissonance?
That’s what I’m referring to when I speak of straddling two worlds.

Yes, Shulem, I believe you’ve stated it correctly. In fact, because what I am seeking is something not really tangible, I sometimes struggle to understand why I’m not happy, when I can and do have most of the tangible stuff.

I just finished writing a long comment but then my internet died. SO all I will write for now is Shulem your analysis is spot on , almost shockingly so.

I agree with SHulem as well. Spot on. And happiness is a state of mind. You can’t depend on the number of the scale to make you happy, the amount of friends you have, your level of education, your choice of religion, etc. Many people think “if I would have ______ ( a better marriage, a thinner look, another degree, etc- fill in the blank) THEN I’ll be happy. But It never works- because there’s always something else at the rainbow
Am I happy? No
Am I content? Absolutely. And that’s enough for me.
There are many aspects that make me- me. I only chose to share some of those with the readers, but believ me my struggles with Judaism go far beyond what I chose to share. I made my decision. It works for me.

Wow! These last comments have been fabulous! How did we go from Riki’s nocturnal adventures to all that existentialist angst? And that’s what I love about being Jewish and my Talmudic heritage (father, like many of yours, was a Talmudic scholar). We fiercely debate and parse.

I don’t have time to expand on this now. Velvel, enjoyed your comments. Yikes. So sorry you spent the time writing something long and then you lost it. Man, I HATE when that happens. Now you’ll have me wondering what I missed. Shulem, you’re spot on, Kaf, you raise salient points.

Yes, I don’t have to wrestle with this on a daily basis. But I was hit with a thought yesterday as I got on my area’s version of your subway. I was headed into the city, wearing pants with no ugly snood on my head. I don’t ride the train much here, I tend to drive in because I have my parking tricks, I know all the free spots. But I needed to spend all day downtown (as we say here) so I left the car at home and rode in by train.

I tend to ride the train far more when I’m in New York so I suddenly had a visceral reaction. I reached for my snood, couldn’t find it and panicked. Then I remembered. I’m home. I’m safe. I don’t need it. And I was just filled with immense relief. And what on earth would happen if I didn’t have it? Why the fear? Unable to answer that question but still flooded with relief that here, at home, I was safe.

That small measure of double life (my husband and I joke about the de-kippah/snood process. The demarcation point is the Williamsburg bridge) is still a conundrum for me. At this stage, I can’t walk into my mother’s apartment without a head covering. I would be willing to cede on the pants. Why can’t we strike a compromise? But you can’t reason with my family. Or any of our families, really. While I enjoy their Shabbos table, and my older sister’s soups, reason and rationale, when I attempt it, just go out the window. The head covering, for a whole lot of reasons, drives me crazy. It feels so manipulative.

Yes, true, I don’t have to go back and forth. But make no mistake. I gave up a lot to get the world I live in now. That is exactly why I wish I would read more about that here. It gets lonely. It was a major sacrifice. And if I had to do it all over, I’d do it all over in an instant.

All worth continuing the discussion. But it’s 5:14 pm and I don’t have a challah. How heretical is that? I better run out…

Kaf, just to clear, when I extracted your comment to agree with you, I wasn’t insinuating you and I have the same struggles. Or the same current struggles. I’d made the earlier point that it was hard for me to swallow that Riki’s double life wasn’t, in some way, tearing her apart. Until she explained it more.

And to underscore, coming from the haupt Chassidish family that I do, leaving that world wasn’t easy. I tend to fly under the radar, so I don’t attract the wrath of some rebbe. But my mother always threatened to disown me. I never want to see you again but can you drive me to the doctor… I’m not so easily dispensable.

And it means, living in my world, that I’m still very different from the people I associate with. They don’t know it but I do. That is, our beginnings are so different. They went to college with not only their parents’ blessing but support. I had to sneak. I have the vexing problem that each world doesn’t have a clue about the other and it’s a tightrope. I don’t want to fall between the boards. The most glaring example is the legions of maternal family members absent from my daughter’s Bat Mitzvah. I acknowledge their absence in the program I wrote.

Correction. “Just to BE clear…”

Yes, J., you make a lot of sense.
One more point I’d like to make, and that’s I think what Riki was trying to say, or at least the feeling I get from her. I’ve heard this sentiment in the past as well. Once a person has made his decision as to what he wants to do with his life and what works best for him and his family or whatever circumstance he may be in, much of the existential angst evaporates, and though he may not be happy, he can silk be content, as Riki put it. I myself have come to those decisions in the past, and have felt that contentment. Only thing is, I don’t stick with my decision and I “re open the file” again and again, changing the plan…

On an unrelated topic, my wife, a frum lady married to a secret apikoirus, would like to talk to someone in the same situation. So if any of you guys are married to someone like her who would like to talk to her (anonymously, at first), our if you’re here yourself, please email me at kafhakela@gmail.com.

Hey, Kaf, I thought you were a woman! And Riki thought I was a guy. At least I thought she thought…

Me a woman? My wife would have a good laugh hearing that. I’m a 100 % red blooded male!

OK, let’s be honest here. A lot of the boys and quite a few of the girls find the whole thing exciting. A self-assured, fun-loving hawt bisexual teacher who lives a double life and comes home to her husband and appears to be completely conventional?

It hits half a dozen fantasy buttons really hard.

No, Riki, I’m NOT saying you’re making things up here. I am saying that your life and the well-crafted story you tell have excited the imaginations of a whole bunch of Unpious readers. And some of the parts of those imaginations are ones they thought they weren’t supposed to have

“Me a woman? My wife would have a good laugh hearing that. I’m a 100 % red blooded male!”

I don’t doubt that you are! I guess I didn’t pick it up soon enough. Given how subtle we sometimes are .

Todd- so refreshing to get a real compliment.I promise you this – my experiences are true and sometimes I can’t beleive it myself , down to the first time I was with a girl at thehtender age of 15 in a super religious girls camp ( perhaps you’ll see that story here?)
Contrary to what some believe, my articles are not just written for shock value . I mean, where else can I share my sexploits? Certainly not in my real life . Lucky for me , theres a site like this which covers all spectrums of the religious and formerly religious conondrums. And hopefully, my experiences provide for some good reading

j. (By the way I also thought you were a guy) Your story about the snood I really relate to . For weeks after sukkos whenever I ate something outside the sukkah I thought oh no I have to hide , and then realized it’s not even sukkos , and even on sukkos my family is fine with me being “meikil” with what I eat outside of the sukkah. I think this feeling is coming from an inner feeling of having to hide and not able to really be myself.
Todd your comment about this being a super hot story is so true. After reading the story I thought do I enjoy this because its intriguing as an unpious story, or do I enjoy it because it is great frum/OTD soft erotica. I think the answer is both.
This comment thread is the real reason why I come to unpious , to explore, share , and discuss unpiousness with others.

Riki: I don’t doubt that your stories are true. I’ve seen enough to know that what you say can and does happen all the time. I’m just trying to understand your frame of mind.

“j. (By the way I also thought you were a guy)”

You mean you guys didn’t catch that humorous tale about the emergency room visit? Yea, not much humor in emergencies but that snood conundrum. I guess I should submit a post on it…

J. You really should , I always write pieces but then they are too short for this website , and of course they never fit the short story topic of the month , time of year etc.

One of the most interesting threads on the site

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