Early Evening, Bedford Avenue

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oh believe me, it’s not that i don’t realize that it’s not all sunshine and rainbows. i mean, that’s why unpious exists, right? i guess i just wish the community was more open… and with openess (perestroika!) comes room for other possibilities. but that’s why it’s not, from my understanding – so things remain as they are.

i know and know of too many of my neighbors who are unhappy. it’s not about glamorizing corruption, but rather imagining what would happen if things were a bit different.

thanks for your comment, you make a good point.

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I mostly try to be modest when I’m in that area, Yona, which is something that my own secular friends don’t understand (“it’s a free country,” i.e.). Sometimes I accidentally embarass myself (or sometimes it’s really hot out) because I don’t expect so many people to be out and about when I’m riding my bike down Bedford in a dress or something. I have a few Hasidic friends though – like you said, not everyone is the same, so not everyone cares what I wear.

Thanks for the comment!

Great!! So perhaps we can be friends too, lol. I happen to have a few hipster acquaintances I do business with as well.

lol. well i’m more of a nerdy academic than a hipster (i’m not emaciated or “cool” enough for that, haha), but yes, we can be friends, i would love that. that’s exactly what i was hoping for.

oh, anyone can email me, too, if they want: melanie.beaudette@gmail.com.

perestroika means rebuild or more precisely “a rebuilding”.

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I know what perestroika means. Maybe I shoulda said glasnost’ lol.

Yossi, thanks so much. I would love to wander into a shul, but I feel like I would have to be invited. I don’t know if that’s true? Also, being a woman, I’m not sure what the rules are for me? I would gladly attend, given the chance. But you know, you should email me if you ever want company at Luckydog. I know the bartenders well there (lol because of my continued patronage) and I’m always down for chatting and beers.

No emails from nuts so far. But then, who am I to judge who is nuts? Also, I’m pretty easy to find on the internet. I’m not worried.

Your awesome Melanie, Williamsburg would love you back if they knew you like I do.

shucks, thanks afia <3

Melanie, nice post, well written.
You vividly portray how individuals within a culture, feel as individuals, rather than as an actor on a set presenting their audience with the desired or projected caricature. A chosid sees you as a hipster. But you are not “really” what the group represents. You see “chasidim”. Are they all just that? Are there not “academic” chasidim? “Pop culture” chasidim”? And thousands of other subtitles we can’t even fathom to attach to individuals?
I love how these subtleties are brought out in your simple sounding, sincere “Why can’t we be friends?” Such a deep question.
My answer, we can be friends as individuals, but as a group its just not going to happen. I wish it wasn’t so…

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Thanks thanks thanks guys. <3

I have always thought that another world is possible, and I refuse to ever think otherwise. Even by interacting like this, right here on Unpious, we are creating a different version of both the Hasidic and the secular world, one that breaks the rules and sets us free in a way. Blurring lines, breaking boundaries… and usually it comes from a place of love and healthy curiosity/empathy/etc. Sadly it seems true that the only option currently is individuals choosing to look beyond or break free from the given boundaries of their respective communities; I just wonder what we need to do to bring humanity back into perspective on a community level. And I'm not talking necessarily about the Hasidic community – the secular community is massively ignorant to our Hasidic neighbors (I get lots of disturbing questions/misinformed comments when people find out that I'm interested in Hasidim – it's like people forget that we're all humans). The whole country could use some shaping up, but personally, I don't mind starting right here.

Virtual hug. I'm also the mushiest person alive.

Thanks Melanie,
I am exactly like you: totally fascinated…
I spend time in this area, biking too or walking.
Guys, i want to talk to you in public places and share a Shabbos meal with you.
I talk with some Hasidic men online but they are scared of meeting me.
I have many many questions to ask you, your wives and kids.
How can I catch you up?

melanie, another lady,

lets get the Q and A started. who knows, maybe 1 day you’ll eat a shabbos dinner with 1 of us.

Hey, Melanie what a wonderful article
Portraying our lifestyle in the most vivid colors,
To Yuda i feel sorry for you, you seem angry and rightfully so but if you want to see things change it has to start by you. Sitting behind a username on unpious and expressing your bitterness is not going to change you or your kids future, if you feel like you have been mishandled etc. speak out,
And if you are scared, you have to overcome it because no one else is going to do it for you
And for Melanie & another fascinated lady ill be more then happy to show you around and answer your questions, there’s so much mystery and shadiness to our Hasidic lifestyle it’s no wander that when an insider comes out with a book it sells like crazy,
People are curious and they want to know, and not necessarily in a negative way they just want to have a chance to have a glimpse into our tradition, why do we wear that huge black hat? Why will we wear a long suit when it’s in the upper 90’s outside, feel free to email me at temp@gottdenger.com ill be more then glad to answer all your questions

@ Yona, i am working on it!
I know why you wear this huge fur black hat!
And I suggested to my electronic Hasidic friend to ask the king of this hat not to kill animals to make them. As Stella McCartney, you can find beautiful fake fur. 2 noble reasons: animals will be safe and, it will be less expensive than $2000-$5000 you used to pay! What do you think about that?
I really would like to talk to you face to face. And no shame to look a lady in her eyes, no?

Dear fascinated, I’m not sure myself what the fur hat is for, I can only suggest that it originated in the last 200-300 years by certain sects that were living in eastern european and the former USSR, where fur hats were worn daily by everyone due to its cold climate, so this fur hat is a nicer, more expensive variation, so honoring thy shabbath and other holidays, its true that recently prices have dropped to below 2000 for even the more expensive styles, but should it be all fake, the purpose of may be defeated, although there are a lot of different orthodox communities that have never adopted this hat and just wear a nicer/newer black hat for holidays. With regards to the animals, I’m not too worried for them, since we never provide or enable them, and they seem to be managing just fine without us, after all they like all animals we’re created to provide something for human kind.

I think that’s an interesting and pertinent question, ms. another lady, but forgive a nerdy historian for wondering about the cultural implications of asking in that way. I think that might be a bit of the ol’ hegemony – transposing secular values (fur is bad!) and ideas onto another culture without considering that not everyone feels the same way or views things the same, even if you, from your secular viewpoint, vehemently disagree with, say, the fur industry (surely there are more weighty problems to solve within the community first?). I say “I wonder,” because I don’t know the answer and I don’t want to impose MY views when there are plenty of people here who can answer this question. But I do wonder about the cultural implications of the way the question was posed.

I do have Hasidic friends in real life, and as someone else mentioned, the level of interaction you will receive really just depends on the person. I have been touched, held eye contact with, shared a beer, been hugged and smooched on the cheek by Hasidim. My interest centers less upon “what is this, what is that?” and more on just interacting at a human level. You figure out that what is this, what is that, through becoming friends. I have never been to a Shabbos meal, however – mostly I think because, well, where would this random tattooed girl have come from lolll? – but that would pretty much be my dream.

I studied gender studies within history, so as you can imagine, many parts of Hasidic culture are difficult for me at times (see: intense patriarchy). However, the reason I want to be friends in real life is so that we can just become human to each other… beyond religion, beyond gender or sexuality, beyond everything and above all. I have qualms with Western feminism for being narrow in this way, as well.

So, I’ve been learning through reading, watching movies, and hanging out in Williamsburg and making/attempting to make friends with Hasidim… because in the end, we’re all individuals, together. GeGott, I’ll definitely give you a shout. “another lady,” (hehe) if you shoot me an email, too, maybe we could all hang out (and anyone here who is interested)? I think that’s a good step in tearing down some walls.

Wow! I am jealous, you have been hugged by an Hasidic? I have a dream to tickle their peyos kindly!
Of course, i talk about human beings, human relationships… But as you just said, they still look at you ‘oddly’. We are in NY in the 21st century… Why do we look so weird?
I am the same as you, i walk, i bike always smiling at them…
For a Shabbos meal, you can come as you are, as a friend… but no cleavage.
So Yona, will you be ready to meet 2 ladies as Melanie and I and share a Shabbos meal?
Melanie, I can meet you, and tell you Hasidic stories only for ladies!
Don’t be jealous guys!

So malina. What’s ur email adr? Where can we get in toch?

Anyone can feel free to email me: melanie.beaudette@gmail.com. I just got “another lady”‘s email – I’m at work, so it may be til the evening til I get back to people, but don’t worry, I’m on it. I’d love to hear from you.

Another lady,
funny how everyone feels that they are looked upon oddly, we feel that we’re getting similar stares and sneers and we could understand it too, especially when we walk in 90 degree weather with all the religious garb.
Finally we don’t look at you oddly, its just our modesty rules are very stringent when it comes to interacting between genders, as much as we are sometimes tempted, and sometimes even fall to temptation and transgress, but its strictly “verbodden”.
Who knows, maybe even me chatting here could be a no no. ; )

It is not another lady, it’s me who sent a private message to Melanie.
But I know a third person, a friend of mine, a lady too, fascinated by you too!
Many New Yorkers are fascinated by you but most of them don’t want to come to you to talk! That’s pity!

From my understanding and point of view, it’s not that people don’t want to talk to each other – it’s the invisible cultural barriers from both ends, as I talk about in my story, that exist that make each group a bit awkward around each other. One of my Hasidic friends and I joke about this all the time (he should write a story, ahem!). Hasidic person and secular person sitting in a bar. Both wanna make conversation, but, like Yona said, from both ends it seems verboten – and no one really knows what to do. It’s frustrating! The best thing to do is take a risk! Say hello The worst that can happen is someone doesn’t want to talk to you. But how different is that from anyone else in the world sitting next to you at a bar/on the subway/in life?

Also, just as an aside, since the feelings of curiousity are often mutual… I think it’s fair to say that we’re all interested in each other, instead of that secular New Yorkers are fascinated by Hasidic New Yorkers. That just objectifies Hasidim and makes them seem like a science experiement in which secular people are “normal” and Hasidic people are not… which to me anyway isn’t true, and works to destroy the reciprocity and mutuality of possible friendship.

*adjusts glasses* I’m such a nerd.

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Whoa. Okay.

Well, Egg, I think you should message me privately. You’re making some assumptions about what this girl has/hasn’t done (online “research,” personal interactions, organizational affiliations, attendence at a cholent night (lol), etc). It sounds like you’re frustrated with the experience you had, and, as you said, the way you went about it (omg pictures on fb). But please don’t make that a universal. Nothing is universal. I’d be happy to talk to you somewhere that is less distracting from the purpose of this piece… which is not, actually, to get a Hasidic boyfriend. Sorry to disappoint, lol.

Also, I’d like to respectfully request that you understand that this story is not the whole of my experience, and that you please don’t condescend as such. It makes it difficult for me to listen with seriousness to what you’re saying. Thank you!

never said anything was universal, and clearly you’ve done your research if you’re posting here! my comment was less about you personally and more about outsider interest and involvement as a whole. and it’s not about “picking up guys” at all. nothing to do with sex and sexuality, specifically, although eventually it’s bound to come up. more about how to cultivate friendships that aren’t based on the “novelty” of the label of “my orthodox friend.” which again, i’m not accusing you of, but it happens and i’d like to hear people’s responses to that.

Sorry, I was just going by the opening of your comment, which was addressed to me personally (and also, “It’s tough love time, Melanie”). But I’m with you – I agree that it’s not about picking people up, but that sex and sexuality does factor into most relationships. Which I find fascinating, and of course, complicated.

My pressing question at the moment, and maybe you can help me with this, is… how many Hasidic women do you think read Unpious? I wish I could hear from them. I’d very much like to be friends with some women. I didn’t mean to imply in any of my comments that I am interested in men only – I just realized it may sound that way since mostly only (Hasidic) men seem to respond on Unpious and other similar sites. I believe there are stories by women on this site, but I want to know… there must be another, more culturally appropriate, avenue in which to reach out to them?

Thanks Egg

Egg — I think you make some rather astute observations; surprised to see them coming from the “other side” of the anthropological divide. Over the years, I’ve seen quite a few non-Jews gravitate towards our group of Hasidim and/or ex-Hasidim, and the resulting dynamics are sometimes curious.

I remember one incident where one of our non-Jewish friends had a birthday party at a local bar. There were about two dozen Hasidim/ex-Hasidim, and maybe 3 of her just-plain-secular friends. When I asked her about the skewed numbers, she said: “Oh, I’m doing something with my other friends separately.” She didn’t mean it unkindly, I don’t think, but it did highlight the fact that she saw these friendships as distinct from her “regular” friendships. There might be understandable reasons, but still, worth exploring.

Another thing, in my experience (the all-important qualifier), those from the outside who gravitate to our small world are almost always women, not men. That, too, I think, is worth wondering about.

None of this is meant to say that there’s something dishonorable about all this outsider interest. Not at all. I think such relationships can prove healthy and beneficial for all involved. But I also think there are some unique challenges with this as well.

Related to all this: I imagine some of you have seen this essay on this very subject. But if not, have a read:

http://thoughtcatalog.com/2012/culture-shopping/

I am a Hasidic woman who happen to live in Williamsburg. Love this blog & enjoyed your article.

I emailed you Melanie.

Shulem –

GREAT point about the outsiders being mainly women. In my personal experience as well (i fucking hate qualifiers but they seem to be more and more necessary in our age of defensiveness) you’re absolutely right about it being mostly women that “gravitate” towards ex-frum kids.

Brent Jeffs, in his memoir on those that left the uber-religious FLDS mormon polygamist community under Warren Jeffs, “Lost Boy” (not a fabulous read, but interesting nonetheless) makes a curious and polarizing point. If we can actually speak on the topic of sexual attraction here for a moment, (since, if we’re all being honest here, is a HUGE draw for one “side” – ex-frum/secular – to interact with one other)he makes a lot of sense, though perhaps it’s a bit of a blanket statement (another annoying necessary disclaimer) and it’s unflattering.

He writes, “In fact, I found that girls really loved lost boys. Unlike many men our age, most of us actually wanted commitment, we wanted connection. We looked for frequent contact and connection….we were unlike any other boyfriends they had ever had….a lot of women also liked the idea of rescuing someone…of course, we were awkward at social functions….but unlike other men, we were happy to hang out with the in-laws and cousins – in part, I think, because they wanted to replace the big families they had grown up in.”

Brent here touches perfectly on what many, again not all, everyone calm down, women on the outside think they’ll be getting when they date an ex-frum guy for the sake of dating an ex-frum guy. now i’m not lumping all ex-religious people together here (since i’m one myself and i’m not like ex-hasids at all), but there are some striking similarities. these ladies (and speaking from my own experiences here, i’m not shy about admitting i’m a bit of an idiot) can have a liiiiiittle bit of a god complex. they think ex-frum kids are going to be exactly like the ex-mormon boys Jeffs describes here. they want to “save” these “poor guys,” and it can be attractive to want to be the “only good thing” in someone’s life. again, one is not all, there are a lot of sane chicks, like melanie and myself (well, i’m only semi-sane) that aren’t in it for that. but there are some that are, and while i’m certainly in no position to judge anyone, i have to wonder how my frum and ex-frum friends feel about being treated like a novelty. probably not fabulous.

now, to the culture shopping article. of course, i’ve read it, have to say it’s where i first learned about the term culture shopping. again, it becomes an issue of “one is not all.” when i first read it, i was a bit upset because i had never even thought i might be “culture shopping” and i certainly never intended to do so. i think more still needs to be said on the subject in a less defensive manner. i’d also like to hear it from the perspective of an ex-hasid rather than someone from the “outside.” there’s certainly nothing wrong with the author having an opinion, but i’d also like to know how the ex-frum community feels about being shopped, if in fact they feel that way at all. mainly, this new threat of being labeled a “culture shopper” actually pushes outsiders away, in my opinion, which welcomes arguments. i worry now whenever i step out with my ex-frum friends (who, i have to say, get along seamlessly with my secular friends and i – we dare to mix friend groups here) that i’m accidentally being offensive, or that my friendships aren’t really “valid” or could be perceived as anything but genuine and loving. of course, the majority’s (i’m a WASP to the max so i’ll go ahead and admit to being a total majority stereotype) phobia of being offensive and politically incorrect doesn’t just apply to how we interact with ex-hasids, but for the purposes of this site, let’s keep it to that topic.

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I’m still waiting for a dialogue to develop but we can’t seem to finish discussing how a dialogue would look and why, it looked like we we’re gonna get to have a nice deep discussion here, not just small talk.

Yona — Which aspects of the discussion interest you in particular?

Yona, I totally hear you. I know for me, I am interested (obviously) in making friends and connecting on a basic, human, loving level. I’m interested in Hasidim not only because we are neighbors, but also because I love culture, ritual, and tradition (oh and I studied Russian and Eastern European history, so there’s that, too). Thanks for bringing this back into focus. I echo Shulem in wondering what piques your interest about the perils (lol) of secular-Hasidic friendship?

it sounded intriguing for me to learn what exactly fascinates them about us chasidim, i really wanted to learn how we are viewed by our neighbors and what they know about our culture, and from where they derive the truth’s and cliche’s about us, and vice versa. but all the while we’re just going back and forth, how we will or wont mingle, is it a one way or two way conversation, are we offended by outsiders looking in or not.??

all i can say is, i only agree with egg on 1 or 2 sub-points she brought up, but 1 thing i truly agree with; the difficulty for us to have any open dialogue or interaction in any public venue. its nearly impossible. therefore this forum would be the next best venue to have these discussions.

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with little time on hand, i’ll keep it short and try to cover most, and can delve into any specifics you wish.

I share your fascination with and culturally rich religions. but why the urge to subvert and rebel.??

it’s a yes on monogamy.
yes on patriarchy but only to some extent.

me writing here is lasting curiosity (i’ll admit an inkling of that exciting feeling of exploring new territory) reinvigorated by your article.

no no on party boys, although there are always people on the fringe who for similar reasons would venture into secular land, but they mostly aren’t there due to a thirst of curiosity of knowledge.

its not only people who are trying to leave the frum world. We are all human, thinking individuals. We need to quench our thirst of curiosity like Melanie does. We also need a window to look out into the wider world, learn from other cultures, the good the bad and the ugly.

It would be a really great idea, to have a clearing house for email addresses of like minded individuals from both cultures who want to connect and make friends.

Yona, I’d be interested in hearing more about your views, espcially about patriarchy (why to some extent?). I know you said you were pressed for time at the moment, but I think you’re saying some cool and interesting stuff.

Thanks Yankel, I agree. Humanity uber alles. I’ve been getting some awesome emails, so if anyone wants to participate in an email list, I’d be happy to organize. I have other thoughts, but I am at work (boo) and will check back in later…

Wow what a great piece you wrote Melanie and what an interesting follow up in the comments sections! I thought I was the only girl with this particular fascination and curiousity but I see so much of myself in not only your story Melanie but in Eggs as well (actually a bit more in the latter) Im pressed for time right now but am excited to see what dialogues develop from this.

Come one come all to the greatest rally of all:

http://i50.tinypic.com/2afmjab.jpg

Melanie,
i’ll give you some examples where where the maternal side takes precedence over paternal lineage.

one who is born by a jewish mother and nonjewish father, they’d be “jewish” according to jewish law, whereas if its the opposite i.e. jewish father non jewish mother, they’re not considered jewish as per jewish law.

secondly, there we’re many times throughout jewish history, where our nations leaders were female’s ex. Deborah the prophet,or other female prophet’s who had some leadership role with their male counterparts like sarah, mirriam, and queen Esther.

patriarchy examples are, inheritance of property and title, as well as tribal lineage.

sorry, for the delay. too much work, too little “me time”.

Aww Yona! I hope you get some you time soon. Also I hope everyone has a lovely Shabbos if they happen to keep the day.

Hmm okay, those are some interesting and pertinent examples. I am thinking of patriarchy in terms of women having less power and control socially than men. Just the very fact that women have written to me privately but not commented here is a good example of that – or the fact that many of religious rituals center upon the men going to shul and not the women. I guess I’m wondering what you (and everyone) think about that. I mean, I’m an educated, worldly gal – but if I was Hasidic, I probably wouldn’t have had the same opportunities. How do you feel about that? I’m not going to be offended by whatever your opinion is, so please don’t take me in into account in that sense… I’m genuinely interested.

Melanie — If I may offer a response until Yona gets around to his… I think there can be no question that Hasidic society (and ultra-Orthodox society in general) is profoundly patriarchal. It isn’t only the fact that women don’t participate in public rituals, but also the very ingrained notion that women’s spiritual lives are considered to be of lesser consequence than that of males. And there is nothing so powerfully illustrative of this than the fact that women are not only exempt from serious Torah study but actively discouraged. Or, as the Talmud says: “One who teaches his daughter Torah, teaches her foolishness.” Or take another Talmudic dictum: “Women’s minds are fickle.”

It is also true (preempting the apologists here) that most Hasidic women will tell you they don’t particularly mind not having to go to shul 3 times a day, not being required — as boys are — to wake up at 6 a.m. and spend 14 hours a day studying Talmud, and being generally exempt from many of the religious requirements imposed on males. (And it is also true, while we’re at it, that Hasidic men, too, suffer from patriarchal attitudes. Or, for the “gender studies” nerds among us: “PHMT.” (And, hopefully, there are no Jezebel readers here to hit me over the head for it.)) But of course, accidental benefits of subjugation hardly rectify the inherent injustice of such a social structure.

Unfortunately, though, feminist theory has yet to have much of an impact on Hasidic society, which means that most women just accept the status quo with a shrug, muttering “It is what it is,” and proceed promptly, strollers and offspring in tow, to the back of the bus.

Thanks Shulem.

What I think is interesting, and just in terms of something that isn’t often brought up in feminist theory (which I have spent many years studying and often times finding myself feeling conflicted about) is the immense pressure upon not just women but also MEN within patriarchy. In any culture with strict rules about patriarchy (hell, even in mainstream America to a certain extent), there is a massive pressure upon men to uphold what it means to be a man – in Hasidic culture, as you mention, studying Talmud for a bazillion hours a day, etc etc. So while patriarchy is unfair to women by disallowing them access to certain knowledges and thereby subjugating them, it is also unfair to men in different ways, vis a vis certain often unobtainable standards of masculinity.

And then of course, as a woman, I have a terrible time understanding why women should be limited to certain roles, prohibited from certain knowledges, relegated to the back of the bus or forced to move aside on the public sidewalk – and therein lie the damaging effects of patriarchy upon women. Or to break it down further, and as you already know, my mind obviously isn’t fickle, yo.

MELANIE, SHULEM DEEN,

The reason women are exempt from “most” rituals and torah study isnt because they are inferior to men at all, we as jews (try to) do what G-d wants us to do, as part of our worship to him. no one will deny that men and women are created equal, but who could say who’s superior or inferior??

G-d in his creation has tasked males and females with different tasks, and he created them in the best way for them to fulfill their tasks.

and if they fulfill their respective task to the best of their capabilities, they are compensated for their worship. it doesnt matter who has a bigger list of different rituals to accomplish.

(since it was brought up by someone attacking Ann Romney, i’ll use it as an example)as a matter of fact, i still cant say for sure who has has a tougher job and thus more important ritual; a man praying 3 times a day, providing for a family, etc.?? or a woman bringing generations into the world, caring for them, being with them all the time/ raising them,etc.??

with regards to verses from the talmud. theres no way one could read the talmud literally, its a very deep volume whereas for hundreds of years since it was put together there are thousands of books written where everything is explained, corroborated, and deciphered. hence the 14 a day studying this wonderful work of art.

it’s very hard to grasp everything thats in talmud, therefore i’m not the best candidate to decipher every dictum you could find (i’ll try my best). the only people who could really talk and explain the talmud well, are real rabbinical scholars who study this a large part of their days

Okay Yona, but how can men and women be considered equal if they have preinscribed roles that are different and valued differently (for example, Talmud scholars are men, and women must make way for men on the sidewalk because Talmud scholars – men – are so important)? What about women and men who are unhappy fulfilling those roles, or who can’t live up to those expectations? How do you account for them?

These are just the things that come to mind when I read your post. Additionally, if we leave this to rabbinical scholars, we’re leaving a discussion of men and women to men only…

funny how those same scholars you claim people make way for on the street are the ones who would hold their female counterparts to the highest esteem, and place their whole success in their studies and in worship at the feet of their wives, who enable them to fulfill their duties. “behind every successful man, there’s a women” is true by us as well.

but the real reason the women are expected to walk modestly on the side and not to mingle within men, is totally different then what you thought. its a modesty issue and not superiority. if you look you would see just the opposite too. a bunch of women walking on the sidewalk, and men walking on the side so to not mingle within the women.

even if physically we don’t have equal roles, the “value” these roles hold are still equal.

what do non jewish people do if they’re unhappy??

lastly, this could still be a discussion between men and women, where a woman (and men too) could explore to understand and the scholars could teach and explain. these scholars are not the ones dictating, they’re interpreting the law as its written.

I know what you’re saying for sure, but being *behind* a successful man isn’t equality… not all women want to be “worshipped”… and separating people by gender, or any other group-based system, can be problematic… that’s why I wrote this article to begin with.

What do non-Jewish people do if they’re unhappy? Well, in secular society it’s generally acceptable to start social movements to change things – which usually shifts society to an extent, such as in the civil rights, women’s rights, or gay rights movements.

I think there is a lot of power in being the ones who get to interpret.

And believe me, these are questions I have beyond the Hasidic community. I grew up very strictly Catholic and faced very similar limitations and issues.

1. the *behind* statement is not meant exclusive, they could lead too. it rather means that even if they don’t have a central role, their role is still central.

2. you have to admit that different genders are somewhat different, so where does it stop?? can they truly be equal in all aspects??

and so are those beneficiaries of social change happier?? sadly and “maybe” for other reasons that’s not always the case.

3. asking questions and challenging thy, i think, is just as powerful

for now gut shabbos, ttyl

i agree especially with your last point. i just think equal opportunity to interpret and to question would be beneficial. but alas. i think you make some great points. but it’s 7pm, so gut shabbos! i hope you have a lovely evening and day tomorrow. talk to you soon, yona

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“2. you have to admit that different genders are somewhat different, so where does it stop?? can they truly be equal in all aspects??”

Yes.
Yes they can.

Peter,
I’m not sure about that, when they assume a different gender aren’t they leaving the first gender identity and its characteristics?? Also why did they feel the need to change, in the first place, not because they didn’t fit in??

Peter,
I’m not sure about thatm.
when they assume a different gender aren’t they leaving the first gender identity and its characteristics??
Also why did they feel the need to change, in the first place, not because they didn’t fit in??

Love this conversation and just wanted to chime in a bit – Yonah is doing a beautiful job explaining complex and easily misunderstood issues and doesn’t seem to need my help, I guess I just want to put my support and personal opinions behind his words. As a happily Chassidic woman I have to say that I feel valued, cherished and honored by my religion and male counterparts, every day. We are different, with different, complementing roles, and never have I been made to feel inferiror, no matter how far back I am asked to sit. I am in constant touch with my inner femininity and find my life to be only enhanced by the laws of modesty, not stifled nor subjugated. Without too much elaboration, so much of what you hear is from the bitter, disillusioned ones and so I just wanted to add a perspective from one who was born there, lives it and loves it. Hope it helped!

Thanks, Free Thinker, and thanks for sharing your awesome story. Irish bars are, in my experience, such friendly places – that’s so cool.

Yehudis, THANK YOU!! Thanks for writing! That’s awesome! I’m happy for you. I think my point (for Yona) was not that there’s no difference between men and women, but that men and women should be given equal opportunities in life. It’s amazing that you feel so loved – not everyone, regardless of their gender, race, ethnicity, religion, etc, is so lucky. That’s truly amazing. My own sister is much the same way, she is younger than me (I’m 29), married, has children, and is very, very happy.

I was just wondering about the women who may not feel the same way as you. For example, a woman who wants to be a scholar (like me) – how does that work? Does she have to leave the community? Or what about a woman who wants to make a life with another woman? Or a man who is gay? How do all these things work?

These are kind of general questions that actually apply to certain parts of the secular community as well, I suppose. But I am curious about how it works in the Hasidic community. I have some idea of the answers, but I would be interested to hear people’s takes on it.

Dear Melanie,

There’s a ton to discuss, but just a small note. I think that you totally missed the point that Freethinker was trying to portray. His story was not just an “awesome story”.

Many of the comments here are coming from a very narrow point of view. Freethinker was trying to broaden your views of the Bedford Hasidic men.

I wanna say that I am Yehudis’ counterpart: Thirtysomething, married, small kid, feminist, university professor. But I’m not even slightly as content as she seems to be. In the secular world, we all have the same chances, we all have the same education, and everyone expects the same from a woman as they would expect from a man. So we study and get PhD’s, just to find out later that eventually, we are not treated the same. People in hiring committees are often old, they don’t go for the nursing mother, they go for the dude. Chances are that the dude has a wife with a career and is responsible for picking up the kids from school, but that is not what people expect, that’s not the norm. Go get yourself a child and ambitions, and wave goodbye the long upheld idea of equality. I made it through eventually, but not without serious scars from the glass ceiling.

(Long story short: In my opinion, this is the worst time for women in the “free” world to live in. 30 years earlier, a woman knew her place (kitchen, that was) and could be content or not. 30 years from now, men will have gotten used to the new arrangement that women want to play important roles outside the house, too, and hopefully, the stay-at-home dad will be frequent enough to keep employers from preferring the less baby-risky men. Now? Of course, women with potential have to pursue a career, but don’t you feel guilty about the kids? Thinking that we have equal opportunities in the “free” world is naive.)

I’ve frequently wondered why the ‘outsiders’ find us so fascinating. We, in our chosen dark age, ponder about the great beyond, but them? What could possibly draw their interest in our self imposed backward ways?

Believe me, Herzbruch, I’m not saying the secular world is awesome for ladies. Hell, I did my doctorate in women’s studies and history, and even the women’s studies department of a highly acclaimed large Midwestern university was a shitshow (excuse me everyone) of hegemony, patriarchy, and priviledge. I don’t necessarily have an opinion about where women have it better or worse – I tend to believe they have it “differently” – I just wonder about people who don’t fit in norm in a closed community where the norm has higher stakes than in the secular world.. vis a vis Gayatri Spivak, “Can the Subaltern Speak?” if you wanna get academic-al.

Jewish Intellect, I do think Freethinker’s is an awesome story, and I also think it speaks for itself. I found it encouraging, saying not to give up, and encouraging as an example of the ways that individuals bridge cultural gaps. I guess if I have something further to say on the subject it is that I wish I knew of more of this that went on, and I wonder what the future holds for an assemblage (for Herzbruch, I’m thinking of Jasbir Puar’s “Terrorist Assemblages: Homonationalism in Queer Times”) or community of like-minded cultural trangressors. I attended Thursday Night Chulent last week and that was eye-opening, and a great start. I hope that’s enough of a reaction for you, but I really did think that Freethinker’s comments were beautiful and stood well on their own. I really do appreciate all of your imput, Herzbruch, Free Thinker, and Jewish Intellect. Jewish Intellect, what are your thoughts on Free Thinker’s points?

“after some conversation ask us with a serious demeanor on their face, “can I ask you a personal question?” We would both blurt out right away “yes you can and by the way the hole in the sheet stuff isn’t true”.

But that is exactly it. The outsiders ask you questions about what they have wondered about your customs, and what you think about different things. But did you ask questions about their customs, about their point of view on anything outside of sports and friendly bar talk? This is still small talk by the way, taking about sports. Nothing wrong with that, my secular Jewish husband also talks sports with his friends. Even in the secular world we all have friends we don’t get into philosophical discussions with. But do Hasids ever get into discussions with non-Jews , whether Christians, Hindu, buddhist, atheists, no matter, about their point of view on various aspects of life? Just for the heck of finding out how different people think about major life issues like marriage, death, historical events, political issues? That’s what I wonder if it ever happens. I know it has not even come close to happening with my particular encounters with Chabad, no matter how gently I try to thread those waters.

Finally, it is not that far fetched for most outsiders to imagine 2 hasidic men walking into a sports bar to watch a game and have a couple of drinks. It is nice to hear that sometimes they engage the other people in the bar in conversation. But the other question that remains is: do Hasidic women ever shoot the breeze with non- Jewish women in a social situation? Do they ever have a Moms Night Out that is not about being wild and crazy, but simply about sharing a glass of wine and decompressing for the day, somehow in the company of non Jewish women? Maybe some Non Jewish woman who is a neighbor, or someone they became friendly with at the playground, something like that. Just talking small talk with non Jewish women? like go get a pedicure and chat with the Asian, Hispanic, African American women doing the same thing?

I don’t believe so. The only time I was able to interact with Hasidic women regularly in a social situation was during an 8 week music class for toddlers that happend to have 4 Frum women in it. I gave it my best shot at friendly small talk. I did not get very far. Yet, it is very normal for secular moms to make connections with new people in a situation like that.

Gabriella, you make an excellent point, something I asked about a couple of days ago. Under what circumstances could secular women and Hasidic women become friends? The only email (only ONE) I got from a Hasidic woman (I think) just warned me to be careful. I got a TON of email from men, and a few from secular women. Additionally, just from a personal standpoint, I find it harder for me to talk to Hasidic women because I am unmarried and have no children… and have no plans to do any of that any time soon, if ever. Most Hasidic women have many children by my age, so there is a huge disconnect for someone like me in terms of a common ground between a 29 year old Hasidic woman and a 29 year old unmarried secular woman with no kids.

But speaking of you dudes, I have had very intense intellectual, spirtual, and personal conversations with Hasidic, ex-Hasidic, Orthodox, etc men. It has never been limited to small talk except when the circumstance was appropriate for such conversation. In fact, I have found that people are so eager to ask me such questions that I almost become shy and feel like I am talking about myself and my culture too much. But I deeply appreciate and value these conversations, and don’t worry, I love the questions and I love being able to ask questions (so keep ‘em coming, seriously)…

I chimed in to this conversation way back in its infancy, and remarked that the cultural divide separating us, was way deeper on a comunal level as opposed to individual. Wathing the conversation develope, it seems that my point has proven most accurate.
I would like to add this. In our modern tolerent secular world, there is still a huge amount of discord regarding so many issues. The polarizing terms liberal and conservative really only mask so many additional levels of dissagreement or worse. The issues of race, gender and sexual orientation, socially economically and politically, are an absolute comedy show as they play out in the news and social media.
Now, throw in religion. Some people, see that as another “problem” hindering developement of a emancipated society. I see it as an island of clarity in world bathed in hateful fog. I love the clarity it gives as to the role it gives every person. Everyone in the world grapples with the questions of role and limits. Most sane people recognise that there is a concept of a role (can a man and a woman actually ever be the same? when I get morning sickness or a period ill rethink that statement) and there is a need to set limits. (can I marry my cat? my boat? but I love it?!) Orthodox Judaism defines roles, and sets limits! Let us at least acknowledge that there is a point to our beliefs that provides some clarity to the deepest issues that have yet to be resolved!

LOL, small tangent: I always say one day people will want to marry their dolphins (because everyone owns a dolphin and is in love with it…). There is also a 30 Rock episode where James Franco guest stars and is in love with a Japanese body pillow. Okay. Thanks for making me laugh along with making some good points GregorTal.

I agree with you to an extent. I think people need someone/something to provide meaning, morality, clarity, roles, limits, yes… but I think those things can be derived from a multiplicity of ideologies and places, not just from religion or even a specific religion. To me, love provides more of a moral compass than anything my (very) religious upbringing taught me. Love everyone, equally. That’s all.

But then again, part of Catholicism (the religion I was raised with) teaches love and charity and selflessness… so the two are intertwined (but obviously not inherent, because the Vatican is also officially against abortion, homosexuality, etc… and intolerance isn’t my version of love at all). And I believe that Judiasm teaches similar things (obviously, Catholicism comes from Judaism), but there are points as well where I question whether certain things within Judaism are objectively loving. But ultimately, I do believe that people take and leave parts of their religion that work for them. I am pro-choice and believe in rights for ALL people, including LGBTQ people, and I also live by many of the aspects of Catholicism that I was raised with, especially charity, humility, and love. So, I realize that the official ideology of religions isn’t everyone’s exact interpretation or use of that ideology.

I was planning on marrying my boat, but now I’m ashamed of my love! Thanks, GregorTal!

To simplify my last comment: Yehudis is thrilled with her place in society, socially and proffecionally. Herzbruch is not. It seems that the key difference between them is the clarity of Yehuds’ role as defined by her religious sub-society. Should we not celebrate that rather than challenge it?

I don’t think anyone is challenging her happiness, but rather pointing out that not all women feel the same as her, so we can’t make one voice a universal. Yes?

Similarly, Herzbruch’s experience isn’t universal. I can see my dissertation committee shaking their heads and saying this isn’t enough data to make that conclusion, GregorTal. There are multitudes of factors as to why people are happy or not with their subject positions. Religion may be one factor, but certainly it can’t define the entirety of one’s existence and happiness – at least not comparatively.

Melanie,
Obviously there are people who are thrilled, and people who are misrable across all cultures and societies. My point is that the norm of orthodox Judaism (I can’t speak for other religions, obviously) provides a clear framework within which to live comfortably, happily and successfully. The secular worlds doesn’t provide that.
As far as pro choice, and love and all those beautiful, meaningful catchphrases, you are again entering the ocean and ignoring the riptides! I am pro choice too. But we all agree that choice ends somewhere. Is it at birth? First trimester? Conception? And if I say I am pro choice, and I believe my choice goes until my baby is one month old, are you going to call me a baby killer? Well then your full of hate, or not? But you love everyone, except me, becaise I’m certainly evel! But if I dare say I believe that you gave up your choice when you engaged in unprotected sex, the tables turn, and I’m a hater and your pro choice! So who sets the standard? Whoever spent more on TV adds that election cycle? Whoever managed to get through the process without his or her extramarital affair becoming more exciting? Orthodox Judaism has standards, that albeit can be debated, but they are certainly logical, and more importantly, they don’t change based on the the mood set by the latest soap opera!
Anyway, if you marry your boat, and I cheat on mywife and make love to your boat… Who gets the kids?

I dunno, I have pretty radical viewpoints. I think a baby is a baby at different times to different people, and I respect people’s right to make that decision as it best suits their sense of morality. And no, I don’t think you’re evil for thinking differently than me. I don’t even think my opinion is relevant in someone else’s decision. And the same goes for the second scenario. Say what you will, but I trust in my heart and mind to make decisions for myself and for others to do the same. I don’t mind what you think. I think we set our own standards. Sound like anarchy? I’m an anarchocommunist, so I suppose so. All your questions seem frivolous to me if we can just love and not hurt each other and don’t worry about what other people are doing that doesn’t hurt us. I think a main problem in society is that people are bossy and nosy (I’m not referring to what you said, but to society in general). lol. Seriously.

If you cheat on your wife with my boat I will drag you onto Maury Povich for a paternity test. Juss sayin.

Melanie, we can certainly schmooze about this topic for hours, if not a lifetime, but I sense that we have reached the end as far as public interest is concerned. I do want to thank you for your initial post, and your subsequent comments, for their genuiness (is that a word?) and sincere acceptance of all people.
Also, and this may surprise you, I am an ‘ultra’ orthodox Jew, but not chasidic, and although I can (and do) converse with chasidim in yiddish, and I can talk talmud and rebbishe stories with them, still, when I walk through Williamsburg, or other chasidic enclaves, I feel some of what you feel riding through on your bike. Like Alice in Wonderland. A social barrier that transends languge.
So thanks for putting those feelings into words for all of us, and good luck making connections that will hopefully bring us all closer as humans.

Melanie

If you’re looking for a more open-minded chassidic-type community, try biking through Boro Park. Try 14th Avenue on Shabbos. You might find more people willing to interact with you; or at least meet your gaze. Good luck.

Chaim S.

Talkin’ about babies and the issue of abortion, there was a story a while back about that this Rabbi allowed a mom to have an abortion as is seems she was going to have conjoined twins and one was going to die and drag the other sib along, so the Rabbi decreed that the dying fetus had a Halachic status of a would be murderer. The mom then consented to the doc aborting the less healthy fetus

GregorTal, thanks for the suggestion, I will take you up on that and let you know how Shabbos is next week in Borough Park. I did ride my bike through Kensington last Saturday and got to see all the hot chanies parading around, which is another topic I would loooooove to hear people’s opinions on. One of my Hasidic friends sent me a video of a People’s Court case about a sheitel destroyed by a dry cleaner… funny stuff, but also socially interesting. I am interested in the relationship between peity and capital/consumption. They seem opposed to me, but perhaps not so much in parts of the Jewish community ($4k human hair wig, wow).

The point on abortion is interesting. When I was sixteen I studied abroad in Ireland. There was a case where a twelve year old was raped, so sad, and the state wouldn’t let her have an abortion because it was against Catholic doctrine. They also wouldn’t let her go to England to have an abortion. To me that seems very unloving and anti-Catholic, but there you have it.

A couple people emailed me about getting together. If anyone else is interested in a little schmoozefest, my email address is on the first page of comments. By the way, it took me like a day to realize that there was a second page of comments – I was wondering why my email kept telling me there were comments, but I couldn’t find them. Welcome to a doctorate level of education, hahaha.

Anyone have thoughts on hot chanies or consumer culture?

Melanie, Wow! You are really diving into the deep water with your last two questions. Btw, for the record it wasn’t me who suggested Boro Park, but I agree you my find it interesting on many levels.
Materialism, consumption, and hot Chanies vis a vis piety, orthodoxy is a troubling phenomenon that is hotly (no pun intended) debated, discussed or perhaps shouted within our circles. May I ask however, as an anacho-communist, how do you feel about such things?
Our society has more opinions than people, and after all the talk everyone kinda does their own thing, within the bounds of their selctive social setting. Some push it more towards one way, some the other. Best part is hearing everyone yelling at everyone else!
One more thing. When you’r tired of brooklyn, go check out Lakewood NJ…. Now that’s a can of worms…

Hahaha. I have a friend from Lakewood, so maybe one day. : ) What’s the deal with Lakewood, though, in your opinion? Also, sorry to misdirect the Borough Park comment (sorry, I just can’t bring myself to spell it the other way, it reminds me of Dunkin Donuts or something) – props to Chaim for the suggestion.

What do I think? I think approximately the same thing I thought at the end of Deborah Feldman’s book (see my comments on the book review post here on Unpious if you’d like) – I find it utterly disappointing and slightly disgusting. Now, that’s not my objective opinion as a gender historian, that’s my personal opinion as a girl who happens to be quite leftist. It’s not that these ladies do/don’t look “hot” – that’s not the point. I find it disappointing that women of any background find solace and even femininity solely inside of consumption. Femininity is an affect, in my opinion – it is NOT expensive leather boots or sushi dates. Even the poorest girl can be sexy – attractiveness exists outside of capitalism. Hot chanies is basically the definition of postfeminism, but the problem is there is that you can’t really apply postfeminism to a closed community that didn’t experience traditional feminism to begin with. Thus, the disconnect.

For example, when I was reading Deborah Feldman’s book, I was cheering her on the whole way (except at points when I felt she slighted accounts of certain people, such as her husband and her aunt) – until she decided that being a secular American was all about jeans and a Blackberry and girl power. I understand how liberating make-up, expensive clothes, fancy sheitel, etc. must be when you are literally NOT allowed these things in the name of modesty… and as a scholar of transnational feminism, it would be unfair to transpose Western feminist ideals onto non-Western subjects (Hasidic women would definitely be considered outside of a normative Western paradigm)… but personally it really disappoints me. I was SO mad at the end of “Unorthodox!” SURELY this is not the only alternate model of femininity available to Hasidic/Orthodox women (and obviously it’s not, it just gets held up as slightly universal because of the popularity of the book). I truly thought DF would become some awesome revolutionary, but she just ended up being a pawn in the ongoing ponzi scheme of the “American Dream.” It gives me a headache just thinking about it, really.

/end rant. ; )

Okay, so, this is random and doesn’t have to do with the above conversation about hot chanies or consumerism, but I wanted to post it somewhere.

I’m a college student who’s been reading the articles on Unpious for some time now (I’ve been lurking since almost the beginning, actually), and I have to say, I’ve always wanted to do a sort of schmooze thing and meet a lot of the folks who write and comment here. You all seem so awesome — or most of you, at any rate.

It’s hard for me to find people here on my campus in Nowhere, Pennsylvania who are even vaguely interested in anything Jewish, let alone Hasidic stuff, and even then I end up teaching more than learning from them. Melanie, my attitude at first was a lot like yours as you described it here. The plan was I’d scan faces, make eye contact with someone, and BAM! — an instant connection and possibly new acquaintance. Of course, it’s never worked out that way.

Perhaps part of the reason is that I’d be nervous about introducing myself even if I did somehow telepathically perceive that I could have a meaningful human interaction with a frum person. On the surface, you’d think I have little in common with the average person on the street. I’m a transgender (FTM), non-romantic asexual Hispanic from a casually Catholic background who is looking to convert to Judaism (and not the kind of Judaism your rebbe would approve of, either). Who knows, maybe that’s interesting to someone.

Does someone know any transgender or otherwise LGB frum, fringe frum, or OTD folks? It’d be great to bond over that and swap experiences. But, hey, I’m open to any intellectual exchange. I don’t mean this to be the equivalent of a craigslist post or something – just sort of sticking my head out.

Middle of nowhere for sure; Pennsylvania is such a vast state! I used to have to drive across PA (all the way, on i-80, 300-something exits) when I lived in Ohio and was visiting home (Maine) for Christmas. So. many. tunnels. Oyyyy.

As a one-time women’s studies prof, I love that you posted this. Not that this post is directed at me specifically, but I bet you could ask the people at Footsteps about this. I know I’m really not the best source for LGBTQ stuff in the frum community(-ies). I could tell you a lot about resources in the secular community, esp. here in NYC, but alas…

LOL @”not your rebbe’s Judiasm.” What type of Judiasm are you looking to convert to, if I may be so bold? Your story IS interesting, and cool. I have friends who converted to reform Judiasm, and it was a complicated process, especially for women because from an uninformed mainstream point of view it is considered relinquishing many of the rights that the women’s movement sought to impliment in secular society. I would be interested to know how you allign your gender identity/masculinity with your religious interest? (And just as an aside, you’ll probably love Judith/Jack Halberstam’s new book, “The Queer Art of Failure,” if you haven’t already gotten your hands on it. He also wrote “Female Masculinity” and “In a Queer Time and Place: Transgender Bodies, Subcultural Lives,” which are equally awesome).

Hope that’s not too personal, but I do think your story is fascinating, Migel.

I think its nice that you see the innocence of these children.. Although I think the community is problematic in terms of lack of opportunity for education etc I think that in modern times purity is rare and valuable and a lot of these children/ families lead a great life even if many dont.
I am also enjoying the exploration of issues about patriarchy secularism etc in the Orthodox world (as an Orthodox person with a very right wing (Boro Park) background, very secular (NYU) education and an integration of the two.

Hey everyone, I just wanted to say thanks for the many, many emails I’ve gotten. If I haven’t been able to keep up, I’m sorry! I am working on responding to everyone. I’ve also been able to meet up with various people, which has been incredible. I got several responses, finally, from Hasidic women as well! Just sending love, and if I haven’t returned your email, hang tight. Life has been busy, but you all are on my mind. : )

Hope all is well with everyone. I’m enthralled as the Nechemya Weberman case/protests unfold…