A Gitten Chodesh

Love your posts…

It’s amusing to see that your wife uses “normal” as a synonym for “frum / observant”.

“normal is everyone but you”

Shtreimel keep it up! You’re always funny & witty

Reb shtreimel – normal? What do “normal” people do on weekends? Millions of “normal” people spend hours screaming at the TV watching football or sitting freezing, without shirts at the game. And millions of other normal people actually do speak to the invisible being they call God at church. So their is nothing remotely abnormal how the average frum family spends their weekends – it actually can be quite emotionally healthy & wholesome.

Doesn’t work for you? No problem by me – to each their own. But don’t judge others by your unhappiness.

I hear you Reb Shtreimel. But your comments were not made in a vacuum – just analyzing this one activity if its normal or not – rather part of a bigger commentary on the frum world. Once you agree that the package can be fun & wholesome the fact that one detail (even a major one) is objectively not normal is irrelevant.

My issue is that it seems that many who are running away from the mumbling at what they feel is a non existing entity (and therefore not normal) run towards screaming at the TV which they feel better about & therefore more normal.

That’s not normal.

They like spending Saturday washing the car better than mumbling in Shul – cool by me. They like spending Sunday screaming at the TV better that some more mumbling & hearing a lecture about one ox goring another – also cool by me. But claiming their lifestyle is more “normal” – not cool by me. I personally like the mumbling — and some singing too — along with some good kugel, cholent, & kishke and having my kids home with me as opposed to at a bar or tailgating not because its more true but because its more fun & healthier.

Play the truth card if you can, the freedom & choices card if you choose, the frum corruption & scandal card anytime, but save us from the normal card. Doesn’t work.

> Everyone’s a Reb in our shul.

This one had me laughing. I love how you artfully weave comedic moments into serious life dilemmas. This was a great post!

If only Kugel were God, then there’d be shulem al yisroel.

Yitzi, “normal” is what constitutes as “the norm”. If the majority of secular people watched sports on TV on weekends (it doesn’t), it would be normal. If the majority spent all weekends in bars looking to get knocked up (it doesn’t), then it would be normal. What the majority does is taking some time to itself in some fashion – whether it be watching sports, going out, or more likely and common, catching up on household chores, spending time with family, devoting time to recreational hobbies; that is normal.

I’ve been wondering though: if you feel you must force yourself to go to shul and join in with the prayers, if it doesn’t come to you naturally and pleases your specific shabbatical needs, wouldn’t going to shul and attending prayers equal to performing a craft, hence working?

yitzi- you think all people who aren’t religious just spend the whole weekend watching sports? Ha! What a weird (and very male-centric) view of secular society.

I think most ‘normal’ people do something similar to me on Saturdays: Catch up on chores from the week, catch up on sleep, hang out with their family and friends, sometimes go on short trips, and do whatever fun hobbies they don’t have time for during the week (mine involve farmers markets, my dog, and cooking. Some people’s do involve sports, true, but that is hardly a ‘norm’. Besides, football season is only 5-6 months a year). Plus like 1/3rd of employed people work on weekends, so there’s that too.

“Coming late means no mikveh, no gossip, no coffee in the little, standing room only, kave tzimer.”

this is the reason why they should really have a coffee service come around right before the torah is taken out. : )

great post.

You ex-frummy’s are all so sensitive.

Abandoning Eden – nowhere did I remotely say that all secular people spend their entire weekend watching sports. Just giving examples of things people do that bring them pleasure despite their not being objectively rational.

And of course you by far downplay the role sports has in society.

And you and froylein are correct – many people to various activities & hobbies that are normal in their society & culture.

That’s the point. And in some cultures mumbling to an invisible being brings people comfort, joy, relief, sense of belonging etc. That is completely normal in their culture. Its good for them & their families no less than what you do. So my point is simple – so simple that even ex-chasidim who never went to school should be able to get. Shul doesn’t work for you – don’t go. Judaism, Chasidus doesn’t work for you – don’t practice it. But just as you guys hate the holier than though Rabbis who disparage your life choices – you don’t belittle the many perfectly normal, happy, emotionally healthy people whom it works just fine for.

Yitzi, what is wrong with you?

>in some cultures mumbling to an invisible being brings people comfort, joy, relief, sense of belonging etc. That is completely normal in their culture.

Yes, I’m sure. I’ll bet Yom Kippur davening on Yom Kippur is also “perfectly normal” in their culture and gives them a “sense of joy” yada yada yada. My ass. Spending a long, miserable day, mumbling words to an invisible deity that you’re 95% sure doesn’t exist is quite the blast, I hear. Such cultural fun.

>Shul doesn’t work for you – don’t go.

Like we’re given a choice. LOL!

If you’ll excuse me, I have a TV to go scream at…

Yitzi, but what if the premise for that joy is deliberate seclusion and putting on blinders? Isn’t disappointment inevitable once people “cross the border”? Shouldn’t their background provide the social skills needed to not get stranded in no-man’s-land?

I am in the same position as Yitzi. In my proffession, normal is extremly subjective. It depends on age group, place, race, nationality, gender etc. What is normal in one person may be abnormal in others.

Yitzi,
Yeah, what’s wrong with you, you have such wierd idea, right guys? WRONG.

On 2 counts. 1 the negativity. (it’s a chilul hashem shel hachozrim be’shaalah) 2- He’s very possibly right.

Our whole life is composed of a story (pun intended) we tell ourselves. Yup Ms. Eden, your story is no better than the next persons. Here’s why;

Is Love true, is my choice to name one of you ‘off the deep end’ a real (negative) choice, is the sun really going to come up tomorrow, is cause and effect true?

I can go on and on with true philosphical conundrums. while some of them you are not privy to, there are some that you are. Yet you still proclaim love with total conviction (if you’re lucky enough). You still are becoming more and more pissed right now at me for choosing to be negative. You still plan your days according to daylight savings time. You are already grabbing for your keyboard to pen (peck, that is) a sharp retort, (can’t you at least finish reading??).

All of the above are stories you are telling yourself. Stories that do not necessarily have a philosophical underpinning to them. Comfortable, constructive, wholesome stories, sure, But philosophically grounded, they are not.

Yet my story about some kind of Being that is the Source of all this wonderfull Existence (and wonderfull story telling), or maybe IS this wonderful Existence, My story that there’s more to reality than what meets the eye, My story where I just need to flesh out this ineffable Reality and live it as manifest in a ‘I and Thou’ realationship, My story is absolute gibberish and laughably not ‘normal’.

Why if youve made the leap out of faith (commendably so) can’t you stop having faith in your newfound ideology? You’ve taken the train ride to freedom but went off at the first stop. You have thought outside of your fathers box, now think outside of your own. Who knows, you may become a proponent of recycling.

Philosophically speaking (did I lose my last reader here?) this Being [call it in its Aristotilian incarnation, Supreme Being, or in its Buddhist/Kabbalistic incarnation of Nothingness], has more standing than your ’cause and effect’ story.

you think?

Froylein — YES, people should be provided with the skills & your last comment is a legit critique. But the question then is what percentage it works for — if it works for a very large percentage of this society, this sub culture, then it can be understood – despite the real pain it causes the minority.

Reb Shtreimel – I don’t expect your wife to get it or understand. I DO expect a liberal, liberated person as yourself to understand. Your wife’s comment WAS perfectly normal – and you will not be truly liberal or liberated until you understand that. This is despite the very real pain it causes you.

Offthederech — you are simply, sadly, wrong. There are many people for whom Yom Kippur is the happiest, most cleansing, liberating day of the year. I am speaking again of happy & emotionally healthy people. It is truly sad that whatever segment of the Jewish people you are (or were) affiliated with never gave you that impression. To clarify – even if you don’t believe one word of it – if you can’t even understand what it does for others – that is a massive failure of the community you were affiliated with – and a tragedy for your personal growth. Again, that is even if you choose to have no part of it because it doesn’t work for you.

And finally Reb Shtreimel – I would write something up if I thought there was really room for understanding & discussion. But sadly the very real pain many ex frummy’s have experienced has led to a certain dogma, a certain religious belief, that cannot be really heard. So for now we will see in the comments if there is any room for a real open understanding, for real discussion.

Froylein – yes they should be given the skills & your last comment is a legit critique. But the question then is what percentage it works for — if it works for a very large percentage of this society, this sub culture, then it can be understood – despite the real pain it causes the minority.

Reb Shtreimel – I don’t expect your wife to get it or understand. I DO expect a liberal, liberated person as yourself to understand. Your wife’s comment WAS perfectly normal – and you will not be truly liberal or liberated until you understand that. This is despite the very real pain it causes you.

Offthederech — you are simply, sadly, wrong. There are many people for whom Yom Kippur is the happiest, most cleansing, liberating day of the year. I am speaking again of happy & emotionally healthy people. It is truly sad that whatever segment of the Jewish people you are (or were) affiliated with never gave you that impression. To clarify – even if you don’t believe one word of it – if you can’t even understand what it does for others – that is a massive failure of the community you were affiliated with – and a tragedy for your personal growth. Again, that is even if you choose to have no part of it because it doesn’t work for you.

And finally Reb Shtreimel – I would write something up if I thought there was really room for understanding & discussion. But sadly the very real pain many ex frummy’s have experienced has led to a certain dogma, a certain religious belief, that cannot be really heard. So for now we will see in the comments if there is any room for a real open understanding, for real discussion.

Froylein yes they should be given the skills & your last comment is a legit critique. But the question then is what percentage it works for — if it works for a very large percentage of this society, this sub culture, then it can be understood – despite the real pain it causes the minority.

Reb Shtreimel – I don’t expect your wife to get it or understand. I DO expect a liberal, liberated person as yourself to understand. Your wife’s comment WAS perfectly normal – and you will not be truly liberal or liberated until you understand that. This is despite the very real pain it causes you.

Offthederech — you are simply, sadly, wrong. There are many people for whom Yom Kippur is the happiest, most cleansing, liberating day of the year. I am speaking again of happy & emotionally healthy people. It is truly sad that whatever segment of the Jewish people you are (or were) affiliated with never gave you that impression. To clarify – even if you don’t believe one word of it – if you can’t even understand what it does for others – that is a massive failure of the community you were affiliated with – and a tragedy for your personal growth. Again, that is even if you choose to have no part of it because it doesn’t work for you.

And finally Reb Shtreimel – I would write something up if I thought there was really room for understanding & discussion. But sadly the very real pain many ex frummy’s have experienced has led to a certain dogma, a certain religious belief, that cannot be really heard. So for now we will see in the comments if there is any room for a real open understanding, for real discussion.

Help, sorry for the triple comment — it didn’t show up at first. I apologize.

Yitzy, if praying to a non-existent being is so much fun and enjoying, why are you forced to do it? why is it a thing you must do? Its not so much fun for everybody they do it just because they think they have to do it. then they feel good because they did a thing they were supposed to do. but they didnt choose it and haven’t been given another choice. Your right, for some its really enjoying and would’ve chosen it if given the choice. The person who watches tv or is doing other hobbies chose to do that and not necessarily because his father did that. and that to me it the definition of real joy.

Trans,
The issue here is if it’s “normal”.

Friends — nobody likes comment moderation, but I had to remove two comments, gratuitous insults both. Please, please refrain from such. We should all be capable of holding intense and heated discussions on varied topics without resorting to schoolyard name-calling.

Boruch,
Thats what i was trying to say. You can’t say it’s the “norm” if its a thing people are forced to do, and they didn’t decide to do it.

Excellent story; excellent photo.

I think sometimes what starts as a nagging feeling of discomfort snowballs into a feeling of disassociaton with one’s faith if that discomfort is taboo and must be hidden and ignored. So whereas in a more open minded community someone who finds that davening shleps would go to a shorted, hipper minyan, in a chasidic environment, that same person would end up classifying the experience as ‘mumbling to an invisable being’.

Outstanding story once again! Thanks a lot!

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